Roymond Posted February 10, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 782 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 238 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, Selah7 said: Do we “have ideas how to clone” a spirit? That assumes it's even necessary. Clones happen naturally; we call them identical twins. Does one of them have a "cloned spirit"? If there's a brain suitable for a spirit to be connected to, then why wouldn't there be a spirit, regardless of how the brain was generated? Though since there is no way in science to measure a spirit, there's obviously no way to even investigate the question Edited February 11, 2023 by Roymond added a final thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah7 Posted February 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,610 Content Per Day: 2.44 Reputation: 3,182 Days Won: 11 Joined: 05/25/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2023 12 minutes ago, Roymond said: Clones happen naturally; we call them identical twins. Does one of them have a "cloned spirit"? No, each twin has it’s own God-given spirit. Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. - Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah7 Posted February 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,610 Content Per Day: 2.44 Reputation: 3,182 Days Won: 11 Joined: 05/25/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2023 16 minutes ago, Roymond said: If there's a brain suitable for a spirit to be connected to, then why wouldn't there be a spirit, regardless of how the brain was generated? I don’t believe our Father in heaven would give a spirit to something He didn’t create. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah7 Posted February 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,610 Content Per Day: 2.44 Reputation: 3,182 Days Won: 11 Joined: 05/25/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2023 Man may be able to clone, but who knows what the consequences will be. I wonder what a cloned person would think about the following Scripture: For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them. - Psalm 139:13-16 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roymond Posted February 11, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 782 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 238 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2023 11 hours ago, Tristen said: Many of the labs experimenting with cloning stopped doing so starting over a decade ago - mainly due to ethical concerns over the shear amount of animal suffering resulting from the massive failure rates. When I last looked into it, the main hurdle was epigenetics, not tissue "differentiation". Differentiated tissues contain the same DNA as every other cell in the body. The epigenetic problem is that many genes are 'switched' on and off as we develop. Therefore, the DNA from an older person contains many genes required for early development that have been 'switched off' - as well as other 'switched on' genes that hinder early development. I have not seen any research claiming to have overcome this issue (though am happy to take a look if you know of any). The switching off of portions of DNA in differentiated cells was what I referred to. The big problem is that (1) we don't know what sections have been switched off and (2) we don't know how to switch them back on anyway. Until we have a map of exactly what happens in sections of DNA getting locked along the way to becoming each and every tissue type there's no way to remediate the problems of using DNA from older cells. As a doctor with a Ph.D. who I know put it, we don't have the computing power to model it anyway even if we knew how it works. 11 hours ago, Tristen said: It is possible that this could be rectified by using DNA from early blastocysts - though I am uncertain what would be the point of such an experiment - since there is a very limited source of DNA for cloning, and you don't know what is being cloned until he/she matures. That would seem to defeat the purpose of most reasons for cloning. True, if copying an adult to get a second version is the goal, it seems almost insurmountable. I would think that somatic stem cells would be the closest to what is needed, but I haven't heard anything about that in over a decade -- doesn't mean it's not being looked at, though; I don't read as much science as I used to. 11 hours ago, Tristen said: I'd have to see the research - but going from your description, I'd be more inclined to describe these as twins/triplets etc., rather than clones. I suppose - if the parents desire twins, this might one day be a viable option. But other than that, I'm still not sure about the goal of such technology. One goal is medical: if they can establish that dividing a blastocyst results in healthy individuals, it would be a step towards showing that if a blastocyst is divided for every individual before implantation, those cells can be kept for future use to grow whatever tissues or even complete organs that individual may need in the future -- i.e. if someone with those cells stored has a failing kidney, putting some of those cells into that kidney could result in a new kidney that's perfectly healthy. 11 hours ago, Tristen said: I think it would be fair to describe entities such as cDNA (copy DNA), PCR primers, and even PCR products, as "artificial DNA". I agree with you if you mean constructing a whole "artificial" genome. Maybe someone could try to make a genomically small, virus-like entity. But even that is very ambitious at this stage. I was thinking more along the lines of just building a piece of a chromosome to get desired results -- on the order of a small virus, yes. PCR primers... that's getting beyond my knowledge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appy Posted February 11, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 23 Topic Count: 133 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,864 Content Per Day: 0.62 Reputation: 2,596 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2023 In regard to man's ability to clone another human. Man can only create from what is and or are tangible and physical things of the earth. The attempt to even make the cloning of animals is man is man thinks he has the power and knowledge he can not possibly attain and that he doesn't need God. No human can create the soul and spirit. Only God. Our soul and human spirit belongs to God. Some one spoke up about twins. While twins can look physically alike at first glance, however, no twins are identical to a tee. There is always a difference between them, height and weight for example. No twins have the same personality and soul. Every human is unique and an individual in his or her own right. Most of us older folks remember the Duggers, who had 19 children, and I think we can use this as an example of what is being spoken here. While we can discern and say for a fact, just from looking at them physically, that they are all from the same parents, and in a way, look alike, none of them identical in personality. The body is the physical and material part of us, that utilizes the five senses of sight, hearing, taste, smell, and touch. The soul is essentially our mind, our emotions, and our will. With the soul, we are able to think, feel, love, design, create, laugh, cry and enjoy music. Humans are not a spirit, but have a human spirit, that is able to have a deeper connection and fellowship with the Lord. Our soul by itself, is unable to express God's love for us. And we need the spirit to help us express God's love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristen Posted February 11, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,367 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 1,340 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/26/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2023 2 hours ago, Roymond said: The switching off of portions of DNA in differentiated cells was what I referred to. The big problem is that (1) we don't know what sections have been switched off and (2) we don't know how to switch them back on anyway. Until we have a map of exactly what happens in sections of DNA getting locked along the way to becoming each and every tissue type there's no way to remediate the problems of using DNA from older cells. As a doctor with a Ph.D. who I know put it, we don't have the computing power to model it anyway even if we knew how it works. And we also have to "switch" other genes off. And we have to figure out how to precisely target these genes for their status change - without impacting other genes, or DNA integrity in general. 2 hours ago, Roymond said: I would think that somatic stem cells would be the closest to what is needed, but I haven't heard anything about that in over a decade -- doesn't mean it's not being looked at, though; I don't read as much science as I used to. Adult stem cells have the same epigenetic issues as other adult cells. 2 hours ago, Roymond said: One goal is medical: if they can establish that dividing a blastocyst results in healthy individuals, it would be a step towards showing that if a blastocyst is divided for every individual before implantation, those cells can be kept for future use to grow whatever tissues or even complete organs that individual may need in the future -- i.e. if someone with those cells stored has a failing kidney, putting some of those cells into that kidney could result in a new kidney that's perfectly healthy. I don't think this is cloning. But it raises a host of other ethical issues. 3 hours ago, Roymond said: PCR primers... that's getting beyond my knowledge! They are just small strings of single-stranded DNA (usually 20 bases or-so) that are designed on a computer and constructed in a lab. They attach to a specific part of the host DNA to start the DNA replication process for PCR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristen Posted February 11, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,367 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 1,340 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/26/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2023 5 hours ago, Roymond said: We most certainly have ideas how to clone humans; several of them in fact. And there's a very high probability that these have been done already. I am doubtful that there are any viable solutions to make cloning consistent - especially human cloning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roymond Posted February 11, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 782 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 238 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2023 16 hours ago, com7fy8 said: Then the child would be female, I would think. I mean the child's body would be. Spiritually, I think you are neither, in your real deeper identiy True enough; females lack a gene for being male. I have to wonder if anyone has considered trying to make a viable egg with all-male DNA, replacing the female DNA in the egg with male. But I really don't think it would be viable; male and female both need things found on the X chromosome. As for spiritual gender... I'm not so sure. I agree with C. S. Lewis that while just because we call God "He" and "Father" does not mean He is male in our fashion, only that whatever He is it is closer to what we regard as male than to what we think of as female -- so that male pronoun says something gender-like about God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roymond Posted February 11, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 782 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 238 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2023 10 hours ago, Selah7 said: No, each twin has its own God-given spirit. Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. - Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 So if clones are made by the same way that twins are, it stands to reason that each clone would have its own God-given spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts