death reigned from Adam to Moses and then what?

[Your closest friendnt]

4 minutes ago, Roymond said:

Stop right there:  Paul was an Apostle.  He presents his credentials in his letter to the Galatians:

(emphasis mine)

Paul's teacher was Jesus Himself.  We don't "have to be kind" at all:  Paul knew what he was talking about because he learned from Jesus.  And when he says "the Gospel", he means not just the core message but all its ramifications.

I think I should explain my self . When I made that statement about Paul in my mind I am correct because it was a time when Paul was not one of the twelve disciples of Jesus and he did not hear Jesus say the things that he taught his twelve disciples...

As a result he did not hear Jesus teachings they way his disciples were...and when Jesus said to his disciples that my words are Spirit Paul was not around to hear that and when he said to them that God said to Moses that Abraham and Issac and Jacob are alive to God which is the samething that God had said to Moses the same thing at the burning Bush which can also be said for Moses himself and who also told Moses that he is also alive to him by reason of being an Israelite and an offspring of Abraham from the chose seed of Abraham from Issac to Jacob to Levy versus from Esau and or the other children of Abraham...and the fact that he was also in the Covenant of Circumcision...

God told him that he is standing on Holy ground and that he is alive in his presence because Death did not reigned upon him as it did not reigned upon Abraham and his chosen children...and by DEFAULT from Jacob to the twelve Patriarchs and the twelve tribes who kept the Covenant of Circumcision...

God also told Faraoh before the Law that his only Son is the Nation of Israel...

Moses did not believe that death reigned upon the chosen Nation of Israel the people of God...

Because he had the witness of God that he had set Abraham and his chosen seed apart from the rest of the world in Life and after their death they were alive to him and he continued to be their God after their death and Jesus said that God is the God of the living and not the God of the dead...saying that Abraham and Issac and Jacob they were alive to him long time after their death...that they were never under the reigned of Death....

It is not correct to say that Death reigned over them...Death was off limits to them and for that reason was also Hades...they were in the Bosom of Abraham and this is what God told to Issac and Jacob and David that at their death they will not be gathered to him but to Father Abraham.  

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Roymond said:

Let's look at what came before:

That's always important, but it's moreso here since Paul starts off the next section with Διὰ τοῦτο, (dee-AH toh-OU-toh), "on account of which", and since there's no occurence of a causal link (most commonly ὅτι [HO-tee]) it refers to what was just said.  So somehow there appears to be a link between Christ dying for us by shedding His blood so we are reconciled, etc., and death reigning. 

In this case the natural statement following Διὰ τοῦτο is actually up ahead in the middle of verse 15:  reconciliation --> life for many.  So v12 through v14 are a bit of a parenthetical statement Paul puts in to set up for v15a where he makes the contrast between the trespass and the reconciliation.  That's kind of handy because it means that v12- v14 can be handled as a stand-alone unit not affected by either what went before or what comes after.

I'm going to start by going out on a limb with verse 12:

"Because" here is Greek ἐφ’ ᾧ (eff hOe), literally "upon which" but due to the case used is better rendered "because of which".  This turns the usual translation on its head; the usual indicates that sin precedes death, but taking this strictly according to the case used the verse is actually saying that since death spread to all men then all sinned -- a causal relationship that tosses all Augustine's arguments about original sin into the ditch because this actually says that what we inherited from Adam is death, and because we are "born dead" then we sin.

Now verse 13:

This is a bit of a parenthetical statement itself but it's an important one anyway because it states a relationship between sin and law:  sin is here regardless, but it isn't counted when there is no law.  And that leads us to the actual question about verse 14:

The progression here is that sin isn't counted where there is no law, yet/however death reigned anyway.  The point is that even though sin isn't counted, that doesn't let anyone skip out of death; death begets death and so death "reigns", i.e. has the power directly.

So what happened at the time of Moses that changes this?  Simply that the Law was given, and so death is moved back a notch; because of the it is now Sin that is reigning.  Think of it as Death being King from Adam to Moses, but then a new King is enthroned, which is Sin.  Death doesn't get thrown out, just sort of demoted to Prince instead of King.

This is commendable because from the scriptures in Genesis we learn that Adam and Eve were alive to God after their exit of the Garden and their Children were also alive to God...

About the physical death we understand that it may come to people because of their age and also it may come to people at any time of their lives and without waiting to die because of their old age.

Actually the first death was a death unrelated to old age..

Abel died quite young and while he was healthy but he died because of violence. 

In Abel we have a young man who was perfect before God and who had not done a similar disobedience towards God like Adam had done to disobeyed a command of God...we read that God was please to the burn offering of Abel and from that we could say that Abel had obey God in something he had asked him even though we do not have anything to suggest that there were consequences to that if he would not follow the instructions the way Kain did...

We can't say that the comment God have to Abel and Kain was similar to the command he gave to Adam and Eve...I do not think that the disobedience of Adam can be repeated by any one else because for that to happen he should find himself in similar situation as Adam and that it is impossible...

Let's go back to Abel briefly we have a righteous person die and if Abel at death was not gathered to God...then we must understand that no one at death would be gathered to God till something happens that it can change the outcome at the death of the individual...

Also what happened to Abel at death it should be in accordance with what God said in Genesis three to the Serpent...if I can say it with my own words because we live after many things have happened. God told the Serpent that he reigned over mankind will come to the end when he will be confronted by the seed of the woman...

This is telling us that God knew and the Serpent knew that the first couple were mark with death and that will be obvious at the time of their death...their physical death...that at that time Death and not God will be there to take them...

Death will surrender the dead individual to the God of the dead Hades...

And Hades kept them in Hades a place that is not in Heaven and it is not on earth and we learn that it was under the earth...as later Jesus Christ said that he will go to the place of the dead in the heart of the earth...

Definitely a man he cannot go there while he is alive he has to die first and live his dead body...so the Devil did not care about the physical body of man he only care about his soul...that's why we say that Jesus Christ died to redeemed our souls ...for those who had died before Jesus Christ their souls had to be redeemed from the one who had takes and kept them after their death...that is the God of the dead Hades...

So we read that at the time of the time till Jesus Christ crush the head of the Serpent that was the time that the DEFAULT reigned of Death came to an end.  Jesus Christ put it this way when he said "I have the Keys of Death and Hades " and All Authority has been given unto me in Heaven and on Earth and in all things under the earth.  

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Roymond said:

Even Jesus suffered the first death -- it just didn't quite "work"; as a college friend of my sister liked to say, "Jesus caught death, but He got better".  And my response, "Jesus caught Death, and He ain't lettin' go!"

He willingly died for us.  And, It worked for Him just like it works for us.  Fear not man...the soul is not killed by the first death for anyone, so NO ONE has really perished forever yet. All that have 'died' will rise to be judged.  First death is just transferring from one realm to the other realm.  Just going from the seen to the unseen.  

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, com7fy8 said:

But, DeighAnn . . . faith is not under the Law . . . right?

Right.

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, Roymond said:

2.  and what did that mean to the person that was 'perfect under the law' vs 'NOT'?

I think Paul would say that no one is perfect under the law, that it isn't actually possible.  He says this in both Romans and Galatians, saying that the Law could never make anyone holy -- it cannot commend, it can only condemn, and this is so because the Law can only be kept by those who are wholly holy but humans aren't holy at all.  The Law showed what people were supposed to be in the kingdom of Israel but it provided no means to get there.

Yet even if someone had kept it completely, the Law does not cover everything!  That was part of Jesus' point with the "You have heard it said... but I say to you" discourse:  the Law only applies to outward obedience, it cannot reach the heart or -- as James would affirm later -- the tongue.  And beyond that there is still Death in the background, perhaps 'only' a Prince but still one that lets no mortal flesh pass -- so there would be no difference; both the Law-keeper and the Law-failer remain under death, equally.

IF someone would have kept the law PERFECTLY, it still wouldn't have worked?  Is that what you meant by 'law doesn't cover everything'?  

A problem with the law was that those who COULD follow it perfectly and so "be saved" while under it, was that it didn't necessarily bring about the effect (or is that affect) that is was supposed to in the heart and soul.  

IF we were STILL under the Law, but ALSO had the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us, do you think we could easily be under the Law today?   Do you know anyone who has been saved who finds the 10 commandments hard to keep?  


 

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I was wondering and I am still wondering why you are speaking different about Abraham and Issac and Jacob from the way you were speaking in the near past..not too long ago...

Are you really wondering, or is that something you are just saying, while in reality, you are wondering something else?  HOW CAN I KNOW?

Feel free to show WHERE I HAVE SPOKEN DIFFERENTLY on the subject, rather than just make the accusation. 

 

6 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

When you used to see Abraham and Issac and Jacob alive in God when they lived and alive to God after they died...according to what God had said to Moses at the burning Bush when he said to Moses that he is the God of Abraham and Issac and Jacob and the time that he said that it was long time after they had died...

'alive in God' is YOUR term, not mine. Mine is straightforward, where you don't have to guess what that 'REALLY MEANS' aka body OR no body glorified OR no glorified ect 


AGAIN, I believe while they lived they were 'alive' to God and after THEIR EARTH BODY died 

they were STILL ALIVE and LIVING WITH GOD IN HEAVEN IN THEIR GLORIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES. 



 

And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.

8The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

9For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

13And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour. MT 8

I BELIEVE we have two bodies and even though the first body has a time limit and DIES, 

it has NOTHING to do with our LIFE IN HEAVEN

which we BEGAN living the day we became a new creature

NO LONGER BELONGING TO THIS WORLD.   


 

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

 

2So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

[com7fy8]

21 hours ago, Roymond said:

Satan couldn't control Adam, if for no other reason then this:  Adam's sin was like Satan's in that both were acts of rebellion -- and a rebel against a good master isn't going to suddenly not be  a rebel for a lesser, deceitful master.

 

In any case, I offer that I understand what you are saying.

But . . .

There is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

This is Satan's spirit which "works" to have people do what Satan wants. 

Plus, Jesus says to Satan's children >

"the desires of your father you want to do." (in John 8:44)

Plus, we have how Satan keeps his people in bondage by means of "fear of death" > Hebrews 2:14-15.

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by com7fy8

[Roymond]

On 3/11/2023 at 9:25 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

God told him that he is standing on Holy ground and that he is alive in his presence because Death did not reigned upon him as it did not reigned upon Abraham and his chosen children...and by DEFAULT from Jacob to the twelve Patriarchs and the twelve tribes who kept the Covenant of Circumcision...

Paul explicitly says that death reigned from Adam to Moses, so death most certainly reigned for Abraham and the rest.  OTOH there's Jesus statement that God is not God of the dead but of the living.

I think this is one of those things our four-dimensional minds just can't wrap around.

[Roymond]

On 3/11/2023 at 10:40 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

...so the Devil did not care about the physical body of man he only care about his soul..

 

According to the Old Testament the physical body is one element of the soul; without a body there is no soul.  The idea of a soul apart from the body actually comes from Greek philosophy, specifically Plato, and Plato's idea has so permeated our thinking it's extremely difficult to get past it back to what the Old Testament meant by "soul".

In fact it's hard to tell if Paul had been influenced by Plato; sometimes it seems he has while other times it seems he hasn't, and yet determining that is difficult for the very reason that our thinking about the soul is warped.

I was actually thinking about this last night when I came across the old bedtime prayer:
 

Quote

 

Now I lay me down to sleep:

I pray the Lord my soul to keep!

And if I die before I wake

I pray the Lord my soul to take.

 

The first two lines aren't really a problem, but if we keep the Old Testament meaning in mind then "I pray the Lord my soul to take" would mean our bodies would vanish from the bed if we died in our sleep.  

[Roymond]

On 3/12/2023 at 3:25 AM, DeighAnn said:

IF someone would have kept the law PERFECTLY, it still wouldn't have worked?  Is that what you meant by 'law doesn't cover everything'?

Right.  The Law on the face of it only covers outward activities; It founders on the two "Great Commandments":  we cannot love the Lord with all our hearts and strength and we cannot love our neighbors as ourselves.  Those two govern the whole Law; if we fail (and we cannot do otherwise) in either (though really it's both) of these then none of the rest of obedience to Law matters because we're in reality acting for ourselves at all times, and that taints all other obedience.  The New Testament Pharisees illustrate this:  they had rules to keep themselves from getting even close to breaking the rules of the Law, and yet Jesus told them they had failed.   In fact some of the great Old Testament saints show the right course by acting not on law but on mercy -- which is really what the Law was meant to do; it showed us that we cannot keep the Law, which should inform us that others can't keep it, either, which should take us to the Golden Rule and thus to mercy.

That's why through the prophets God tells Israel that He despises things He commanded them to do:  they put themselves at the center in the belief that they could keep the law, and thus missed its most important lesson, that we all need mercy.

On 3/12/2023 at 3:25 AM, DeighAnn said:

A problem with the law was that those who COULD follow it perfectly and so "be saved" while under it, was that it didn't necessarily bring about the effect (or is that affect) that is was supposed to in the heart and soul.

Right:  in order for it to achieve that effect the person had to recognize that it couldn't actually be kept.  All the little ceremonial type items like tithes and such could be kept but when it came to commanding the heart, well, we know what Jesus said about the heart!

On 3/12/2023 at 3:25 AM, DeighAnn said:

IF we were STILL under the Law, but ALSO had the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us, do you think we could easily be under the Law today?   Do you know anyone who has been saved who finds the 10 commandments hard to keep?  
 

Every person who is saved and honest about it will admit that the Ten are impossible to keep -- especially when what Jesus said is taken into consideration.  According to Jesus, if I've ever been angry with an acquaintance or friend enough I feel like hitting them, I'm guilty of "Don't kill!"