When will the Judgment Seat of Christ (BEMA) occur?

[Cntrysner]

 To me it is the difference between the Spirit and the flesh not the ones who cry the loudest with insults. Cry a river if you will but it is bitterness. Rejoice in the Lord for He is the giver of all good things that man can not attain in their flesh through works. All things that are eternal to man are by the grace of God and not of works because if it is of works it is no more grace and grace is not judgment. God said my grace is sufficient but some lie to themselves believing in their own works thus becoming a stumbling block to others that have itching ears.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, chesed said:

LoL, or in spite of what Arminian theology claims, they don't!

Yep.  Just like a typical Calvinist.  If you ain't one, you're tother.  Well, I am NEITHER a Calvinist nor an Arminian, since both contain large errors in their theology.

2 hours ago, chesed said:

Or perhaps He is not saying what you think He is saying?

Or perhaps He is not saying what you WANT Him to say.

2 hours ago, chesed said:

Is there a difference between eternal security and inability to fall away.Of course.

[To "fall away" doesn't mean to lose salvation, as so many confused believers have been taught.  Many believers have left the faith.  Jesus even taught that possibility in the parable of the soils;  second soil DID fall away.]

I would agree, men fall away for a season but the elect who have been called don't...

What verse makes this guarantee?

2 hours ago, chesed said:

Romans 8:29-30 ESV
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

This passage doesn't guarantee that believers won't leave the faith.

The Bible shows believers being encouraged to "remain in the faith" and "stay true to the faith".  

[chesed]

46 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Yep.  Just like a typical Calvinist.  If you ain't one, you're tother.  Well, I am NEITHER a Calvinist nor an Arminian, since both contain large errors in their theology.

You're the one who labeled me Reformed and now I am a Calvinist? I was just honoring you as you dishonored me.

48 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Or perhaps He is not saying what you WANT Him to say.

Maybe but I also have commentators (non Reformed) who agree.

50 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

What verse makes this guarantee?

Which verse are you referring to?

51 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

This passage doesn't guarantee that believers won't leave the faith.

The Bible shows believers being encouraged to "remain in the faith" and "stay true to the faith".  

Romans 8:29-30 ESV
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

It goes from predestination to glorification, all due to grace alone.

I'm sorry if you deny some of these obvious truths of Scripture, I can't be of much help.

[ChristB4us]

15 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Do you have a scripture or two that supports this?  Thx.

Your response to this previous post

"I agree but it is different from the BEMA Judgment seat of Christ  when judging His Church which will occur at the pre great tribulation rapture event for this is when the vessels unto honor, vessels of gold & silver, that are abiding in Him by His grace & by His help are received by the Bridegroom for why those that did not depart from iniquity are excommunicated from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven & cast as in left behind into the coming great tribulation.  They will die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven to wait for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood and earth to serve the king of kings on earth for that thousand year reign in raising up the generations coming."

Bema Judgment seat is referred to here but not mentioned as is.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

This is how Jesus will judge in that day verse 13 below.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and so if any unrepentant works of iniquity be on that foundation that defiles the temple of God, He shall destroy with physical death, but the spirit is still saved per verse 15.

We see this waning from Paul for not bringing his body under subjection as he would be at risk of being a castaway & not just lose the reward of his crown.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

I clarify that salvation is not at risk, but being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection is at risk for why Jesus is warning His disciples to be ready or else be cut off and left behind with the unbelievers for when He sends that fire on earth.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Notice the stripes that those left behind will receive as they are still His servants for why they are being punished and compare this with Hebrews 12:1-11 below in how in verse 6, the Father scourges as in whip every child He receives for not looking to Jesus Christ for help in laying aside every weight & sin thus NOT resisting sin.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Here is a waning from Jesus to the church at Thyatira to repent or else be cast off into the bed of the coming great tribulation to be judged with death unless they repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

So when they die, heir spirits will be with the Lord in heaven awaiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor for not departing from iniquity, but they and even former believers, are still in His House.

This is why we are to call them to go to Jesus Christ for help in seeing the truth in His words so that they too may repent with His help & be received as vessels unto honor in His House.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

So even if former believers that would verbally deny Him and He will deny them at the time of the rapture, although they are left behind, He still abides in them.  This is why even they are still to be called to go to Him to depart from iniquity so they can be received by Him as vessels unto honor in His House.

As it is, all unrepentant believers living in sin need to go to Him for help to depart from iniquity or else.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

This is why we are not to grieve the Holy Spirit in us les we should defile the temple of God and wind up left behind to die, with our spirits being with the Lord in heaven, to await for the resurrection after the great tribulation as we are sealed to that day of redemption;  but which day shall it be is up to how we hope in Him for; as a vessel unto honor in His House or as a vessel unto dishonor in His House?

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, chesed said:

You're the one who labeled me Reformed and now I am a Calvinist? I was just honoring you as you dishonored me.

First, what's the difference between reformed and Calvinist?

Second, I see that your motto is "Do unto others as they do unto you".  Except I haven't "dishonored" you.  What was it that you took as being dishonored?

11 hours ago, chesed said:

Romans 8:29-30 ESV
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

It goes from predestination to glorification, all due to grace alone.

I'm sorry if you deny some of these obvious truths of Scripture, I can't be of much help.

What truths do you think I deny? Could you at least be clear when you post your insults?  That way, I will be able to CORRECT your errors.

[ChristB4us]

15 hours ago, chesed said:

I guess I didn't realize this conversation was about bearing fruit but rather whether loss of salvation was possible.

Loss of salvation is not possible but bearing fruit as His disciple does come with a consequence for not bearing fruit as in not abiding in Him as we ought.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

We are to trust the Lord Jesus Christ in being our personal Good Shepherd & Friend in helping us to lay aside every weight & sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son as we can only live this reconciled relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is what running that race is all about ;  not just for the reward of crown but to avoid becoming a castaway and thus losing our crown, but not our salvation.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.  25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Tie that in with John 15:6 above to see the relation with this warning below.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.  41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Note the stripes on His servants as they are still His servants, albeit left behind?  Compare that with the scourging the Father will give for the purpose that they may be partakers of His holiness for not resisting sin thus not running that race.

Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Any questions?  Feel free to ask for clarification, but always rely on Jesus Christ as your personal Good Shepherd to confirm His words to you in all matters.

[ChristB4us]

15 hours ago, chesed said:

Can you make your point in 2 or 3 sentences?

There seems to be lots of meandering. Sorry.

Paul had written about the falling away from the faith in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15 and in spite of that, he goes on to 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7,14-15 where we are to withdraw from those that refuse to repent, but not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers still.

And just as we are to excommunicate them until they repent, so will Jesus Christ do when He comes as the Bridegroom in judging His House first at the BEMA Judgment seat of Christ as they will find themselves excommunicated form the Marriage Supper held in Heaven and thus left behind on earth for the fire coming on the third of the earth and the coming great tribulation.

Unless they repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes.

Feel free to ask any more questions.

Edited April 13, 2023 by ChristB4us

[chesed]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

First, what's the difference between reformed and Calvinist?

You're the one who first used those terms, so you tell me. I would only say that all Calvinists are Reformed but not all Reformed are Calvinists. Your turn.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What truths do you think I deny? Could you at least be clear when you post your ins

I said "IF you deny some of these obvious truths..."

Only  you know for sure.

[chesed]

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Any questions?  Feel free to ask for clarification, but always rely on Jesus Christ as your personal Good Shepherd to confirm His words to you in all matters.

Yes, we are to be Bereans. (Acts 17:11)

[chesed]

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Paul had written about the falling away from the faith in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15 and in spite of that, he goes on to 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7,14-15 where we are to withdraw from those that refuse to repent, but not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers still.

And just as we are to excommunicate them until they repent, so will Jesus Christ do when He comes as the Bridegroom in judging His House first at the BEMA Judgment seat of Christ as they will find themselves excommunicated form the Marriage Supper held in Heaven and thus left behind on earth for the fire coming on the third of the earth and the coming great tribulation.

Unless they repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes.

Feel free to ask any more questions.

2Thess 2:1-15, seems to be speaking of the strong delusion coming upon unbelievers because they had not received a love for the truth vss. 10-11. There's no falling away unless you take 'apostasia' as a departure from the faith rather than a departure from this world, aka rapture.

Historically, the Church has done a lot of unjust persecution and excommunication throughout the ages. So without apostolic authority, who should be the pope?