How can "the Church" be raptured BEFORE Jesus is risen?

[DeighAnn]

12 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

The rapture is an event commonly referred to as the moment when Jesus will come for His Church before He establishes His kingdom on earth. The exact timing of the rapture in relation to the return of Christ is a subject of debate among Christians. Some believe that it will occur before a period of tribulation, while others believe that it will occur after or during this period.

It SURE is, and how terribly sad that is.  One day soon, that will cease to be but by then it will be too late for so many who will fall away before then because they believed what MAN said instead of what is written.  And WOE to those teachers of such doctrines of man.  


So no one is confused, HERE IS A FEW VERSES OF WHAT IS WRITTEN THAT MAKES PTRD impossible to be GODS TRUTH

 

2 Thess 1:4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.


Could it be made MORE CLEAR THAN THAT?   Maybe only with what comes next

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


OR DOES THIS MAKE IT MORE CLEAR THAN THAT?  

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


GOD KNOWS NONE OF THAT COULD BE WRITTEN IF HE WAS COMING BEFORE FOR ANY REASON WHAT SO EVER.  IF HE DID, THAT WOULD MAKE ALL OF THAT NULL AND VOID.  IF THAT ISN'T A WAY TO PROVE FALSE DOCTRINE I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS.  

OH, and there is this IN Rev 1...NOT SURE WHAT IS THE BEST VERSE TO PROVE CHRIST ONLY RETURNS AS LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS 

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


or

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

HOPEFULLY those who are reading this will understand


Can't take away the daily sacrifice if all that worshipped our Father in heaven are already with Him, right? 

Can't leave the right hand before Satan kicked out, can He?  

Can't be a falling away if everyone was 'raptured away' can there?

God wouldn't SEPERATE the BODY made ONE WOULD HE?  

WHY on earth would God have wisdom run to and fro in the end, AND THEN REMOVE IT ALL?

NONE OF THOSE THINGS WOULD MAKE SENSE....BUT IF ANY OF IT WAS WRITTEN...that would be a different story.  

I know the way to WITHSTAND the fiery darts of Satan is with the Gospel Armor, just like that same Gospel Armor gives me oil to keep the lamp lit, just like it will KEEP ME safe when the trib comes upon the whole inhabited world.  I believe in the power of God and the power we were given over ALL our enemies.  

SO even though THE PTRD " is an event commonly referred to as", you can see how it CAN'T POSSIBLY BE GODS TRUTH.  

 

And I would imagine the Book of Rev would be really complicated if I were trying to fit in NOT just another 'coming of Christ' but another ASCENDING, another going to the right hand of God, another resurrection of the dead, along with another time the alive and remaining are changed...HOW is it ALL the alive and remaining who were changed LEFT SOME WHO WEREN'T?  WHO KNOWS, MAYBE HE'LL GET IT RIGHT THE SECOND TIME AROUND...so many contadictions, so many things not written, so many things assumed, so many verses made void, so many people believing a lie because they won't believe what is RIGHT and what is RIGHT is all people running the race set before them as opposed to ALL people EXCEPT FOR ONE GENERATION.  

[DeighAnn]

27 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Can you provide evidence of any person or organisation that maintains "the church is raptured before Jesus is risen"?

Where have you picked up this argument from?

Everyone who says the Church is the 'elders' in Rev 4.  

[Michael37]

22 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Everyone who says the Church is the 'elders' in Rev 4.  

Well I have never come across anyone who does. 

The term elder isn't confined to New Testament saints.

There are different interpretations of who the 24 elders are. Some believe that they are human, while others believe that they are angels. One interpretation is that the vision of the 24 elders in Revelation is a combination of a kingly throne room and the temple, with the 24 elders representing the 24 priestly divisions in the temple.

[DeighAnn]

11 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Well I have never come across anyone who does. 

The term elder isn't confined to New Testament saints.

There are different interpretations of who the 24 elders are. Some believe that they are human, while others believe that they are angels. One interpretation is that the vision of the 24 elders in Revelation is a combination of a kingly throne room and the temple, with the 24 elders representing the 24 priestly divisions in the temple.

Start asking because they do.  I agree elders are a part of Israel, but are not Israel. 

I had no idea of those other interpretations.  I have always just looked at them as part of Gods 'court' in the heavenly temple, but 'kingly thone room' sums it up well.  

 It all has something to do with the 'church' not being mentioned again, although with Satan ruling on earth HOW COULD there be a 'church of God' on earth as the whole world is deceived and everyone believing 'their God' has returned.  Anyways, no one pre trib seems to agree with another much except, they are NOT going to be enduring to the end, just to their end.  It's all confusing to me. 

[BibleWords]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

I absolutely agree, Christ Jesus has been in heaven for 2000 years and has not returned since and so it is impossible for the church to be "the elders" we see before He got there.  Not following what 'A vision' means as that is a way prophecy was/is/is going to be given, but OK and thank you for the reply.

The elders were not there before Jesus got there.  John saw the elders and Jesus.

“At this point I had another vision and saw an open door in heaven.” Rev. 4:1

And the voice that sounded like a trumpet, which I had heard speaking to me before, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this.”  Rev. 4:1

Rev.4:2–At once the Spirit took control of me.  There in heaven was a throne with someone sitting on it.”

Rev. 4:4–“In a circle around the throne were twenty-four other thrones, on which were seated twenty-four elders dressed in white and wearing crowns of gold.”

The elders are there encircling the throne where Christ is.  Rev. 5:6

They did not precede His arrival there.

He is already there.  So is the Father.

Both on the throne. 
What I meant by “vision” is just that.

John is seeing a vision of this entire scene.  Not a chronological order of events like a schedule.  John sees this vision all at once.

This does not teach that the elders are there before Jesus.

It’s a vision.

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Start asking because they do.  I agree elders are a part of Israel, but are not Israel. 

I had no idea of those other interpretations.  I have always just looked at them as part of Gods 'court' in the heavenly temple, but 'kingly thone room' sums it up well.  

 It all has something to do with the 'church' not being mentioned again, although with Satan ruling on earth HOW COULD there be a 'church of God' on earth as the whole world is deceived and everyone believing 'their God' has returned.  Anyways, no one pre trib seems to agree with another much except, they are NOT going to be enduring to the end, just to their end.  It's all confusing to me. 

If I were to interview the 24 elders the first question I would ask is whether they ever lived on earth.

If no then the next question would be how did they come to be on duty around the throne of God prior to John being caught up there and shown Jesus as the Lamb of God taking the seven-sealed-scroll and opening it.

One possible answer could be that God created them at that time especially to reveal the scene to John.

 Dan 4:35  All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

[Montana Marv]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Where is it written 'the church' has been renamed 'the elders'?  

PTRD has the church in heaven in Rev 4, yet it isn't even until REV 5 that CHRIST is found in heaven.  So HOW is that possible?  
 

PTRD has THE CHURCH IN HEAVEN BEFORE JOHN 
 

1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
 

3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 

PTRD has THE CHURCH IN HEAVEN BEFORE THE LAMB SLAIN

7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.


Having THE CHURCH IN HEAVEN before CHRIST would mean

THIS COULD NOT BE TRUTH 
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

BECAUSE they were THERE BEFORE EVERYONE WHICH WOULD MEAN THAT EVERYONE WHO CAME BEFORE WAS PREVENTED 

or else

THE ELDERS are not just the RAPTURED CHURCH THEY ARE ALL CHRISTIANS of all time THAT HAVE LIVED AND DIED which would mean we have ALREADY lived and died.  

It's all just SO CONFUSION.

Do I have this all wrong?  Am I missing something?   Is there something that CHANGES this?  Can anyone explain? 

 

You are reading it wrong.

 

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

He, being the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath prevailed.  Crucified, Buried, Arose, and Ascended.  Now already in Heaven before the Scriptures were penned.  And before the Church began at Pentecost.  To me the Elders with crowns are the Church; 12 of the Jews Believers, and 12 of the Gentiles Believers.  In Heaven before the scroll is even opened.  Thus the Pre-Trib Rapture has already taken place.  The Bema Seat of Christ has already happened.  The Bride has been given her rewards.  Then the Seals are opened.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

[Michael37]

6 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

To me the Elders with crowns are the Church; 12 of the Jews Believers, and 12 of the Gentiles Believers.  In Heaven before the scroll is even opened.  Thus the Pre-Trib Rapture has already taken place.  The Bema Seat of Christ has already happened.  The Bride has been given her rewards.  Then the Seals are opened.

In Christ

Montana Marv

And yet there are still saints on earth for the beasts from the sea and the earth to tyrannise.

Rev 13:7  It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
 

[Jayne]

I don't know what PTRD means.

[Montana Marv]

2 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

And yet there are still saints on earth for the beasts from the sea and the earth to tyrannise.

Rev 13:7  It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
 

A Saint is someone who has been Redeemed.  O.T. Saints were Redeemed when Christ was Crucified, Buried and Arose, then going to Heaven with the Ascension of Christ.  The 1/3 of Israel who are to be tested and refined as of by fire, will also become Saints, they have been Redeemed.  Saints dying or going into captivity, have been Redeemed,  Those beheaded under the Altar also have been Redeemed.

Those Predestined before the foundations of the Earth are Saints, or will become Saints.  One big family, but not all the same.

In Christ

Montana Marv