what is the " NEW APOSTOLIC REFORMATION "

[warrior12]

4 hours ago, SACREDWARRIOR said:

 

Hello,

 for the best information GOOGLE HOLLY PIVEC and listen to her podcasts..

 

Yes, Holly Pivec has done extensive research on this movement.  The basic understanding is, that they are seeking to restore the offices of apostles and Prophets ,i.e they must govern the church.  They see those as above the pastors and elders in the church  and that they can govern multiple churches, even thousands.   This is happening now and it is a movement that is growing especially as interest  is growing in end time awareness.    

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by warrior12

[Mr. M]

On 6/28/2023 at 9:05 AM, teddyv said:

Much of the spirit of the NAR was actively at work on and around the January 6 riot in Washington DC. Che Ahn, another Wagner disciple, was giving a wild speech on the Jan 5, including this line:

“[W]e’re going to throw Jezebel out and Jehu’s gonna rise up, and we’re gonna rule and reign through President Trump and under the lordship of Jesus Christ.” from here (and I have heard the recording of this as well).

On Jan 6, there were multiple "spiritual battle" prayer events (another big aspect to NAR theology) around the Capitol including several other prominent prophets and apostles closely aligned with the NAR.

Consider the possibility of a world leader rising up from this NAR and  "7 mountain mandate" that you provided a link for, who not only confesses Christ the way G. W. Bush did, but also proclaims the kingdom of heaven on earth.

Let's say these ambitious men are no different than Ted Haggard, who is mentioned in the NPR interview, and we know that the true temple of God is the body of Christ. Is this not an abomination?

Is a US president who confesses Christ, and his top advisors are leading evangelicals of Haggard's ilk, not a type of the beast and false prophet?

Just a thought munchie.

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Mr. M
amend text

[GandalfTheWise]

On 6/28/2023 at 8:26 AM, warrior12 said:

I came across this term in researching the rise of the claim of apostolic and prophetic ministries with the emphasis on "sign and wonders".  Some who claim to be prophets, say they  see  or have visitation from angels and are given direct revelation from God.   Any insights from the folks here on their views and understanding of the NAR.  

Depending on who you read, NAR has become a relatively ambiguous slur in some polemic circles (i.e. heresy hunters) with an increasing large umbrella as to what it encompasses.  Once someone gets labeled as NAR on some web sites, few bother to look in detail as to what they actually teach in context but just recycle isolated quotations from various books or sermons as proof that they are NAR and should be avoided.  And then anyone who ever has anything to do with them might get hit with the label as well.

Here is my sense of what the three main issues are.

1. I think most Christians would agree with the idea that we are to be influencers and examples in the world around us, in our neighborhoods, vocations, and lives.  This includes those Christians whom God has called into the business world, management, teaching, politics, or indeed any role we are called to.  Dominionism takes this to an extreme with the idea Christ has given the Church a mandate to become the leaders and authorities in all these areas to establish the Kingdom of God now in preparation for Jesus' Return.   Note that this extreme is basically the opposite side of the extreme that sees the entire world preparing for the antichrist right now and that any Christian attempt to better the world is futile and rejects prophecy.    My sense is that some teachers and preachers who push the idea that Christians can and should be examples, influencers, and leaders in the world around us erroneously get lumped into the NAR category.  The reality is just about every Christian ministry does see its role as establishing the Kingdom of God in their region of influence though they may not use those words.  This might be a home for battered women and children, a medical center, a food bank, a christian school, an activist group opposing drunk driving or human trafficking or other things that advocate christian values and practices outside the walls of the church.

2. The idea that God has put people with gifts and callings in areas of evangelism, church planting, pastoring, teaching, etc. is pretty much standard among all churches.  Some fringes in the church take this to an extreme seeing some individuals as apostles and prophets without the proper grounding in the Body of Christ at large but more as specially anointed lone rangers.  This leads to individual-centered ministries without a healthy level of accountability of some leaders.   This is all too common everywhere and does not just apply to prominent large ministries but many small local churches.  My sense is that actual NAR people specifically uses the terms apostles and prophets as particular God-assigned offices some people have and advocate a limited accountability for them because they are special.  This is far different than the majority of Christians having particular teachers or leaders that they respect and follow.

3. Finally, there is the old debate of whether miraculous works and gifts of God were for only specific times and places in church history (or possibly today in places where the gospel has never been preached before), or if they are meant to be part of the ongoing life and ministry of the Body of Christ.  The NAR obviously is part of the side that believes miraculous signs, works, and gifts for today.  However, my sense is that most pentecostals and probably many charismatics see excesses (lack of accountability of leaders or unhealthy obsession with political and economic power) as problems rather than embracing them.  In other words, NAR is a smaller movement within pentecostal and charismatic circles that many pentecostals and charismatics reject.

I think the key things to look at are 1. is there an unhealthy fixation with acquiring political or economic power?  2. Is there an elevation of certain individuals to the point of reduced accountability?  3. Is there an unhealthy view of miracles (e.g. you aren't healthy or wealthy because you do not have enough faith)?   For me, the extremes are the starting point of even considering if someone is really NAR or not.  Many solid mature Christians believe in influencing society, respect particular teachers and leaders, and believe in the miraculous as for today without being anywhere close to the extremes of NAR.  

[teddyv]

1 hour ago, GandalfTheWise said:

Depending on who you read, NAR has become a relatively ambiguous slur in some polemic circles (i.e. heresy hunters) with an increasing large umbrella as to what it encompasses.  Once someone gets labeled as NAR on some web sites, few bother to look in detail as to what they actually teach in context but just recycle isolated quotations from various books or sermons as proof that they are NAR and should be avoided.  And then anyone who ever has anything to do with them might get hit with the label as well.

Here is my sense of what the three main issues are.

1. I think most Christians would agree with the idea that we are to be influencers and examples in the world around us, in our neighborhoods, vocations, and lives.  This includes those Christians whom God has called into the business world, management, teaching, politics, or indeed any role we are called to.  Dominionism takes this to an extreme with the idea Christ has given the Church a mandate to become the leaders and authorities in all these areas to establish the Kingdom of God now in preparation for Jesus' Return.   Note that this extreme is basically the opposite side of the extreme that sees the entire world preparing for the antichrist right now and that any Christian attempt to better the world is futile and rejects prophecy.    My sense is that some teachers and preachers who push the idea that Christians can and should be examples, influencers, and leaders in the world around us erroneously get lumped into the NAR category.  The reality is just about every Christian ministry does see its role as establishing the Kingdom of God in their region of influence though they may not use those words.  This might be a home for battered women and children, a medical center, a food bank, a christian school, an activist group opposing drunk driving or human trafficking or other things that advocate christian values and practices outside the walls of the church.

2. The idea that God has put people with gifts and callings in areas of evangelism, church planting, pastoring, teaching, etc. is pretty much standard among all churches.  Some fringes in the church take this to an extreme seeing some individuals as apostles and prophets without the proper grounding in the Body of Christ at large but more as specially anointed lone rangers.  This leads to individual-centered ministries without a healthy level of accountability of some leaders.   This is all too common everywhere and does not just apply to prominent large ministries but many small local churches.  My sense is that actual NAR people specifically uses the terms apostles and prophets as particular God-assigned offices some people have and advocate a limited accountability for them because they are special.  This is far different than the majority of Christians having particular teachers or leaders that they respect and follow.

3. Finally, there is the old debate of whether miraculous works and gifts of God were for only specific times and places in church history (or possibly today in places where the gospel has never been preached before), or if they are meant to be part of the ongoing life and ministry of the Body of Christ.  The NAR obviously is part of the side that believes miraculous signs, works, and gifts for today.  However, my sense is that most pentecostals and probably many charismatics see excesses (lack of accountability of leaders or unhealthy obsession with political and economic power) as problems rather than embracing them.  In other words, NAR is a smaller movement within pentecostal and charismatic circles that many pentecostals and charismatics reject.

I think the key things to look at are 1. is there an unhealthy fixation with acquiring political or economic power?  2. Is there an elevation of certain individuals to the point of reduced accountability?  3. Is there an unhealthy view of miracles (e.g. you aren't healthy or wealthy because you do not have enough faith)?   For me, the extremes are the starting point of even considering if someone is really NAR or not.  Many solid mature Christians believe in influencing society, respect particular teachers and leaders, and believe in the miraculous as for today without being anywhere close to the extremes of NAR.  

Good post.

Coming from the Dutch Reformed tradition, there has been a call to be engaged in the world in the various spheres of activity, but not so much as to be in power and authority but to be the salt and light in the world. 

With respect to calling, those who were part of the inner circles of the various elements of the NAR, it was rather interesting that these select few all felt that they were called as the apostle or prophets, i.e. they were called to be the leaders. 

[warrior12]

16 minutes ago, teddyv said:

Good post.

Coming from the Dutch Reformed tradition, there has been a call to be engaged in the world in the various spheres of activity, but not so much as to be in power and authority but to be the salt and light in the world. 

With respect to calling, those who were part of the inner circles of the various elements of the NAR, it was rather interesting that these select few all felt that they were called as the apostle or prophets, i.e. they were called to be the leaders. 

More than that, the emphasis is on the gifts , especially prophecy, which essentially means that new revelations from God is announced.  How does this dwell with a pastor that teaches from the word and has to contend with "God told me".  Many are leaning on these type of movements as for confirmation of events unfolding before us or for insights as to what they must do in preparation for life changes ect. 

I may be wrong, but fear is a factor that will push people to want to know the future and how  to deal with aspects. The NAR, are strongly geared to prophecy, in subtle ways, and then how the function or role of a prophet is defined is also a topic on it's own.  

[teddyv]

2 hours ago, warrior12 said:

More than that, the emphasis is on the gifts , especially prophecy, which essentially means that new revelations from God is announced.  How does this dwell with a pastor that teaches from the word and has to contend with "God told me".  Many are leaning on these type of movements as for confirmation of events unfolding before us or for insights as to what they must do in preparation for life changes ect. 

And yet, there seems little accountability for those prophets who fail in their prophetic utterances, especially the "fortune tellers". In my mind, this is the most egregious form of taking the Lord's name in vain.

2 hours ago, warrior12 said:

I may be wrong, but fear is a factor that will push people to want to know the future and how  to deal with aspects. The NAR, are strongly geared to prophecy, in subtle ways, and then how the function or role of a prophet is defined is also a topic on it's own.  

Fear is a factor for sure, but there is a general uncertainty that we deal with in life. As creatures that love to look for patterns, this leads us to attribute effectively random events and apply it to a larger, usually malevolent body. I guess that creates comfort that something else is to blame for our misfortune.

Edited June 30, 2023 by teddyv
wrong word