Ash Wednesday Mark ? A Seal of the Cross, Or a Mark you Shouldn't Take ? ? ?

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

Is what were talking about focusing on the major, core things, but holding onto the nonessential differences loosely?

No, i don't. I see it as about certain traditions, being done. If not, if it is more about essentials, non essentials could you explain more for me? I do agree with you on conscience let each do as their heart and mind leads. It is IMO, things shewing your faith. Like this.

1Co 11:26  For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Anne2

[Stewardofthemystery]

30 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Apostolic traditions were held.....written OR SPOKEN

2Th 2:15  Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

 Passover seder

Which is by whom?

4 cups, or one cup?

 

Many of the OT prophets spoke by “the command or commandment of God.” Even Jesus said He spoke what the Father had commanded Him to speak.  Those commands and commandments of God is what God commanded, not men.

Even though the apostles were chosen and sent by God, and often spoke by the Holy Spirit; not everything they said was by “the command,”or by “the commandment of God”as is written in the law and prophets.

Case in point is what Paul said below…

1 Corinthians 7:6

But I speak this “by permission,”and not of “commandment.”

2 Corinthians 8:8

“I speak not by commandment,”but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

 

So not everything spoken by the Apostles is spoken “by commandment” even though they spoke with the wisdom and understanding given them by the Holy Spirit. 

 

If God Himself commanded it, it will also be written in the law and prophets, or in the words of Jesus Christ, who did speak by commandment.

 

 

 

[Anne2]

1 minute ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Many of the OT prophets spoke by “the command or commandment of God.” Even Jesus said He spoke what the Father had commanded Him to speak.  Those commands and commandments of God is what God commanded, not men.

Even though the apostles were chosen and sent by God, and often spoke by the Holy Spirit; not everything they said was by “the command,”or by “the commandment of God”as is written in the law and prophets.

Case in point is what Paul said below…

1 Corinthians 7:6

But I speak this “by permission,”and not of “commandment.”

2 Corinthians 8:8

“I speak not by commandment,”but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

 

So not everything spoken by the Apostles is spoken “by commandment” even though they spoke with the wisdom and understanding given them by the Holy Spirit. 

 

If God Himself commanded it, it will also be written in the law and prophets, or in the words of Jesus Christ, who did speak by commandment.

And? What about Apostolic tradition. It is clear they had traditions they handed down. As well as, the notion of being conciliatory, to others. When possible to be conciliatory, rather than divisive. As well as avoiding hypocritical judgments as well. I do not see why this should be a divisive issue. Yep, we certainly do have issues with Papal Rome, and perhaps also Eastern Orthodox. But to be conciliatory when we can can, is not harmful. 

[LiveWire]

16 hours ago, believeinHim said:

Can anyone explain the Ash Wednesday Mark to me ? 

you really cannot grasp the concept until you commit gluttony all day for Fat Tuesday followed by Ash Wednesday and then Sackcloth Thursday, in order to kick off the weekend with 12-pack Good Friday.

[Stewardofthemystery]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

And? What about Apostolic tradition. It is clear they had traditions they handed down. As well as, the notion of being conciliatory, to others. When possible to be conciliatory, rather than divisive. As well as avoiding hypocritical judgments as well. I do not see why this should be a divisive issue. Yep, we certainly do have issues with Papal Rome, and perhaps also Eastern Orthodox. But to be conciliatory when we can can, is not harmful. 

If the traditions are based on the commands of God, no problem.

But when men begin to make up their own traditions, beliefs, doctrines, holy days etc. that are not commanded by God, then there is a big problem.

Learn of what Jeroboam did to cause “Israel to sin.” And of all the sins that Jeroboam did which angered the Lord.

1 Kings 14:16

And he shall give Israel up because of the sins of Jeroboam, who did sin, and who “made Israel to sin.”
 

Jeroboam, much like the Catholic Church has made priests out of some of the lowest people.  They set up graven images and false idols, and made their own places of worship. They have made their own holy days, beliefs, and traditions of men.

 

The Catholic Church has also forbidden its priests to marry, and has made its own “meatless” feast days, which was prophesied to happen when people would fall away from the faith.

 

1 Timothy 4:1-3

King James Version

4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”

 

 

[FJK]

27 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

But when men begin to make up their own traditions, beliefs, doctrines, holy days etc. that are not commanded by God, then there is a big problem.

Such as Christmas? 

[Stewardofthemystery]

1 hour ago, FJK said:

Such as Christmas? 

Correct.

[Vine Abider]

4 hours ago, Anne2 said:

No, i don't. I see it as about certain traditions, being done. If not, if it is more about essentials, non essentials could you explain more for me? I do agree with you on conscience let each do as their heart and mind leads. It is IMO, things shewing your faith. Like this.

1Co 11:26  For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

I have some perception that you and I may not communicating effectively here (and on that other thread we had some back & forth on). I'm going for clarity, not necessarily agreement - so just trying to understand.  There's a lot of talk about traditions and how that affects one's faith, but I don't think I'm getting on the right wavelength and therefore not understanding you.  Please bear with me sister!

What I mean by essentials of the faith are the core/basic items of our mutual Christian faith.  Things like believing Jesus is Lord; He died for our sins in our place; Christ is the only way to the Father; we are justified by faith in Him alone, and not by works, etc. - those kinds of things we all stand together on, right?  These are examples of the essentials of the faith, and with that foundation we can have fellowship.

Many other things we talk about on here are nonessentials of the faith.  Things like speaking in tongues; belief in healing; church organization/government; observing certain days; eating certain things; dressing a certain way, etc.  And I think at least most, if not all, church traditions (developed practices & rituals) fall into this nonessentials of the faith category.

Does that make sense?

 

[Anne2]

15 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I have some perception that you and I may not communicating effectively here (and on that other thread we had some back & forth on). I'm going for clarity, not necessarily agreement - so just trying to understand.  There's a lot of talk about traditions and how that affects one's faith, but I don't think I'm getting on the right wavelength and therefore not understanding you.  Please bear with me sister!

What I mean by essentials of the faith are the core/basic items of our mutual Christian faith.  Things like believing Jesus is Lord; He died for our sins in our place; Christ is the only way to the Father; we are justified by faith in Him alone, and not by works, etc. - those kinds of things we all stand together on, right?  These are examples of the essentials of the faith, and with that foundation we can have fellowship.

Many other things we talk about on here are nonessentials of the faith.  Things like speaking in tongues; belief in healing; church organization/government; observing certain days; eating certain things; dressing a certain way, etc.  And I think at least most, if not all, church traditions (developed practices & rituals) fall into this nonessentials of the faith category.

Does that make sense?

 

Yes, it makes sense. What I think we may not see eye to eye on is

1. Works which show what we believe.

To keep it simple....

A. The Lord's supper is works which "show" something by our actions. It shows the Lord's death.

B. Baptism shows our death and resurrection in and through Christ. 

Neither of which would be done if we did not believe

a Death

b Resurrection 

James says faith without works is dead. We should be no different than Noah, Abraham, etc. They "did" things because they believed.

I also would disagree with you

2.Church Leadership, authority, is an essential for those called to it.

Some are called to that, some are not.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Anne2

[farouk]

18 hours ago, FJK said:

Such as Christmas? 

Whether or not one is involved with the trappings of Christmas observance, the great doctrine of the Incarnation (John 1.14; Colossians 2.9, etc) is truly fundamental.