YEC's cannot reconcile "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 with the same 2 words in Jer 4:23!

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

I agree, that's a more logical state of the early universe. Some of those elements in the beginning was created into a sphere.

So you think God created the universe as some kind of slime, and then, later on, got around to creating the earth out of that slime?  That's what it appears you think.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, teddyv said:

I can grant the the current model of the universe could be described as having a period of chaos and lack of form

Except Genesis 1 isn't describing theS universe in v.2.  It is describing the earth.  

So YEC's have to accept "tohu" as a wasteland, chaos, etc, rather than simply formless.  And there is no evidence for that.

2 hours ago, teddyv said:

 

 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, SavedOnebyGrace said:

Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah 4:23 refer to a wasteland before restoration of the land.

Correct.

1 hour ago, SavedOnebyGrace said:

There is no creative work in Genesis 1:2.

I believe the part about the Holy Spirit "hovering over the waters" to be the very beginning of the restoration, which included creation of various things.

However, that is only a minor point.   

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I copied from biblehub and YES "tohu" WAS TRANSLATED as waste.

"emptiness" translates "wabohu".  The issue is "tohu", and all the translations used "waste", "chaos", "desolation", etc.

This is quite an excellent example of denial.

Why bother?  It is a bogus translation, when the other 2 verses that include "tohu wabohu" clearly indicate a description of chaos, desolation, waste, etc.

I'll tell you again what "tohu" CANNOT mean:  formless/without form.

If you can see something, you are seeing its FORM.  

So Gen 1:2 FAILS at properly translating "tohu".  But neither Jer 4:23 or Isa 34:11 failed.  

Where was the land in those verses in Isa and Gen, there wasn't any. 

You can't add two words together waste and land and say earth was land then became a wasteland.

Wabohu is two words wa and bohu not placed together like wasteland.

It's 50/50 on if it's tohu va bohu or tohu wa bohu.

You definitely cannot see an atom with your naked eye.

And you should of bothered, not all the translations have formless and void. I gave you a chance to show that but you didn't want to bother with it your loss.

Gen 1:2

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

The Earth was chaos and empty and darkness on the faces of the depths and the Spirit of God hovered on the faces of the waters.

That wasn't the only one either.

Edited August 16, 2023 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

Interesting Psalm statement below, so was earth placed in multiple locations above the waters? Coupled with Genesis account of land appearing from the waters seems there is quite alot of info to learn about creation. Was it the dryland of pangea that got spread out.

Psalm 136

6 To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His faithfulness is everlasting;

Genesis 1

9 And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, so that the dry land may appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

Edited August 16, 2023 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Where was the land in those verses in Isa and Gen, there wasn't any.

The land was clearly noted in v.1.  "earth" is the key word.  

As to Isaiah 34, some people are interested in the context.  Here are the first 2 verses:

1 Come near, you nations, and listen; pay attention, you peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world, and all that comes out of it! 

2 The LORD is angry with all nations; his wrath is on all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter. 

3 Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will stink; the mountains will be soaked with their blood.

So, yes, there is land in BOTH texts.

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

You can't add two words together waste and land and say earth was land then became a wasteland.

Why can't you?  That is exactly what went on in Jer 4:23 when a besieging army rendered the land "tohu wabohu".  What we don't know in Gen 1:2 is HOW and WHY the earth "became tohu wabohu".  But we know it happened and God restored it.

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Wabohu is two words wa and bohu not placed together like wasteland.

wabohu is translated as "void" "empty", etc.  There is no relevance to the meaning of tohu.  It means "waste", "chaos", "desolation", etc.

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

You definitely cannot see an atom with your naked eye.

So what?  What is your point?  That isn't even relevant.  Are you seriously suggesting that God created earth atom at a time?

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Gen 1:2

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

The Earth was chaos and empty and darkness on the faces of the depths and the Spirit of God hovered on the faces of the waters.

That wasn't the only one either.

Does God create anything that can be described as "chaos"?

hint:  God does not create items of chaos.

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

The land was clearly noted in v.1.  "earth" is the key word.  

As to Isaiah 34, some people are interested in the context.  Here are the first 2 verses:

1 Come near, you nations, and listen; pay attention, you peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world, and all that comes out of it! 

2 The LORD is angry with all nations; his wrath is on all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter. 

3 Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will stink; the mountains will be soaked with their blood.

So, yes, there is land in BOTH texts.

Why can't you?  That is exactly what went on in Jer 4:23 when a besieging army rendered the land "tohu wabohu".  What we don't know in Gen 1:2 is HOW and WHY the earth "became tohu wabohu".  But we know it happened and God restored it.

wabohu is translated as "void" "empty", etc.  There is no relevance to the meaning of tohu.  It means "waste", "chaos", "desolation", etc.

So what?  What is your point?  That isn't even relevant.  Are you seriously suggesting that God created earth atom at a time?

Does God create anything that can be described as "chaos"?

hint:  God does not create items of chaos.

The flood in Noah's time brought alot of chaos. The sun is nothing but a burning ball of chaos. And it will kill anything that gets near it.

It's wa-bohu not wabohu.

Do you think it's impossible for God to create one atom at a time?

Edited August 16, 2023 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

So you think God created the universe as some kind of slime, and then, later on, got around to creating the earth out of that slime?  That's what it appears you think.

Not even scientists think the universe was some kind of slime. 

It's apparent you like to exaggerate, to says words that no one has said like extra slime.

Edited August 16, 2023 by BeyondET

[SavedOnebyGrace]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I believe the part about the Holy Spirit "hovering over the waters" to be the very beginning of the restoration, which included creation of various things.

However, that is only a minor point.   

Let's agree to disagree on that minor part.

[BeyondET]

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

 

Does God create anything that can be described as "chaos"?

hint:  God does not create items of chaos.

Darkness, in the beginning God created that as well that blanketed the surface of the deep.

Job 38:9

when I made the clouds its garment and thick darkness its blanket,

Edited August 16, 2023 by BeyondET