YEC's cannot reconcile "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 with the same 2 words in Jer 4:23!

[FreeGrace]

Gen 1:1 -  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Gen 1:2 - Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

The words "formless and empty" in the Hebrew are "tohu wabohu".  Just for the facts, every object HAS form.  It is absurd to claim an object does NOT have form, which means 'shape'.  So from that fact alone, v.2 has been translated very poorly, which has led many believers astray.

The same 2 words are found in only one other verse in the OT;  Jer 4:23 - I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone.

Here, we see the same words as found in Gen 1:2, "formless and empty".  But we must look at the context for this verse.  The context is about an invading army that destroys nations and did exactly that to Israel.

 

5 “Announce in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say: ‘Sound the trumpet throughout the land!’ Cry aloud and say: ‘Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities!’ 

6 Raise the signal to go to Zion! Flee for safety without delay! For I am bringing disaster from the north, even terrible destruction.”

7 A lion has come out of his lair; a destroyer of nations has set out. He has left his place to lay waste your land. Your towns will lie in ruins without inhabitant.  This is describes the "tohu wabohu" that will be found in v.23.

13 Look! He advances like the clouds, his chariots come like a whirlwind, his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us! We are ruined!

16 “Tell this to the nations, proclaim concerning Jerusalem: ‘A besieging (invading) army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah.

20 Disaster follows disaster; the whole land lies in ruins. In an instant my tents are destroyed, my shelter in a moment.

23 I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone.  Here we have the same 2 Hebrew words that are in Gen 1:2.

So, the YEC believe that God created the earth "tohu wabohu" as a PROCESS of creation, that took 6 days (chapter 1).  

Yet, it is very clear from the context of Jeremiah 4 that "tohu wabohu" clearly describes the destruction of "the whole land" of Israel by a besieging army.

So, the YEC want us to believe that "tohu wabohu" is used for original creation by God of the earth, and is used for total destruction of the land in Israel by an invading army.

The fact is, the 2 Hebrew words mean the same thing in both verses.  This shows that Gen 1:2ff is a description of a restoration of the earth by God to prepare it for man's inhabitance.

This means that something happened to the earth AFTER creation (v.1) that left the earth a wasteland, which God restored (v.2ff) for man's use.

Therefore, the earth is way older than Adam, not just 6 days older.  How old is irrelevant.  Doesn't matter.

And, the earth's age has NOTHING to do with evolution, so the YEC can calm down and ignore what evolutionary scientists say about anything.

The earth is way older than Adam and all without any "evolutionary theory".  

[teddyv]

I think you are stripping the "formless and empty" from the Genesis narrative. It is declared formless, then God forms the "containers" on the first three days. It is called empty, then God fills those containers on days 4 to 6. Creation is the solution to formless and empty.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

(Jeremiah 4:23)  I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.
(Jeremiah 4:24)  I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, and all the hills moved to and fro. [ESV]

So the verses around Jeremiah are interesting. The verses around Jeremiah 4:23 are interesting. The Earth was present but the sky had no light from the Moon or stars. The Earth was without form and void, but it did have mountains, hills and earthquakes. Sounds like this was a judgement by God on an earlier creation.

 

[FreeGrace]

17 hours ago, teddyv said:

I think you are stripping the "formless and empty" from the Genesis narrative. It is declared formless, then God forms the "containers" on the first three days. It is called empty, then God fills those containers on days 4 to 6. Creation is the solution to formless and empty.

I'm not stripping anything.  That is the English translation from "tohu wabohu".  I'm calling out the poor translation since the only other use of "tohu wabohu" is in Jer 4:23 in which the context is the total destruction of the land by an invading army, as I showed in the OP.  

The 2 words HAVE TO mean the same thing in both verses.  So prove that any object can even be "formless".  I'll wait.    

[FreeGrace]

18 hours ago, teddyv said:

I think you are stripping the "formless and empty" from the Genesis narrative.

No, I'm pointing out how "tohu wabohu" is translated in Jer 4:23, the ONLY OTHER VERSE in the OT that has these 2 words.

18 hours ago, teddyv said:

It is declared formless, then God forms the "containers" on the first three days.

No, whoever wrote Genesis (Moses?) didn't declare anything "formless".  Can you provide an example of any object that is "formless"?  No, you can't.  That is a terrible translation of "tohu".  Such a state does NOT exist in reality.

18 hours ago, teddyv said:

It is called empty, then God fills those containers on days 4 to 6. Creation is the solution to formless and empty.

Yes, "empty" as in an uninhabitable wasteland.  The solution to "formless and empty" is to understand how it was used in Jer 4:23, the ONLY OTHER use of the 2 words and apply it to Gen 1:2, which YEC seem unable to want to do.

So, if "tohu wabohu" was describing original creation (Gen 1:2) then WHY did Jeremiah use those same exact 2 words to describe what a "besieging army" (Jer 4:16) did to "the whole land" (Jer 4:20)?  YEC really need to explain how the 2 words can be used for creation in one text, and then used for total destruction in another text?

That clearly makes no sense.

Here is the text from Jer 43-

7 A lion has come out of his lair; a destroyer of nations has set out. He has left his place to lay waste your land. Your towns will lie in ruins without inhabitant. 

8 So put on sackcloth, lament and wail, for the fierce anger of the LORDhas not turned away from us. 

9 “In that day,” declares the LORD, “the king and the officials will lose heart, the priests will be horrified, and the prophets will be appalled.” 

10 Then I said, “Alas, Sovereign LORD! How completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our throats!” 

11 At that time this people and Jerusalem will be told, “A scorching wind from the barren heights in the desert blows toward my people, but not to winnow or cleanse; 

12 a wind too strong for that comes from me. Now I pronounce my judgments against them.” 

13 Look! He advances like the clouds, his chariots come like a whirlwind, his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us! We are ruined! 

14 Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved. How long will you harbor wicked thoughts? 

15 A voice is announcing from Dan, proclaiming disaster from the hills of Ephraim. 

16 “Tell this to the nations, proclaim concerning Jerusalem: ‘A besieging army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah. 

17 They surround her like men guarding a field, because she has rebelled against me,’ ” declares the LORD. 

18 “Your own conduct and actions have brought this on you. This is your punishment. How bitter it is! How it pierces to the heart!” 

19 Oh, my anguish, my anguish! I writhe in pain. Oh, the agony of my heart! My heart pounds within me, I cannot keep silent. For I have heard the sound of the trumpet; I have heard the battle cry. 

20 Disaster follows disaster; the whole land lies in ruins. In an instant my tents are destroyed, my shelter in a moment. 

21 How long must I see the battle standard and hear the sound of the trumpet? 

22 “My people are fools; they do not know me. They are senseless children; they have no understanding. They are skilled in doing evil; they know not how to do good.” 

23 I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone.

I have color coded the text.  The red words refer to the invading army that destroys the land.

The blue words refer to the result from invading the land.

Please don't tell me that "tohu wabohu" means "formless and empty".  How could a beseiging army render the land "formless"?

Rather, just look at all the blue words.  That's what they did to the land.

[tim_from_pa]

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Gen 1:1 -  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Gen 1:2 - Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

The words "formless and empty" in the Hebrew are "tohu wabohu".  Just for the facts, every object HAS form.  It is absurd to claim an object does NOT have form, which means 'shape'.  So from that fact alone, v.2 has been translated very poorly, which has led many believers astray.

The same 2 words are found in only one other verse in the OT;  Jer 4:23 - I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone.

Here, we see the same words as found in Gen 1:2, "formless and empty".  But we must look at the context for this verse.  The context is about an invading army that destroys nations and did exactly that to Israel.

 

5 “Announce in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say: ‘Sound the trumpet throughout the land!’ Cry aloud and say: ‘Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities!’ 

6 Raise the signal to go to Zion! Flee for safety without delay! For I am bringing disaster from the north, even terrible destruction.”

7 A lion has come out of his lair; a destroyer of nations has set out. He has left his place to lay waste your land. Your towns will lie in ruins without inhabitant.  This is describes the "tohu wabohu" that will be found in v.23.

13 Look! He advances like the clouds, his chariots come like a whirlwind, his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us! We are ruined!

16 “Tell this to the nations, proclaim concerning Jerusalem: ‘A besieging (invading) army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah.

20 Disaster follows disaster; the whole land lies in ruins. In an instant my tents are destroyed, my shelter in a moment.

23 I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone.  Here we have the same 2 Hebrew words that are in Gen 1:2.

So, the YEC believe that God created the earth "tohu wabohu" as a PROCESS of creation, that took 6 days (chapter 1).  

Yet, it is very clear from the context of Jeremiah 4 that "tohu wabohu" clearly describes the destruction of "the whole land" of Israel by a besieging army.

So, the YEC want us to believe that "tohu wabohu" is used for original creation by God of the earth, and is used for total destruction of the land in Israel by an invading army.

The fact is, the 2 Hebrew words mean the same thing in both verses.  This shows that Gen 1:2ff is a description of a restoration of the earth by God to prepare it for man's inhabitance.

This means that something happened to the earth AFTER creation (v.1) that left the earth a wasteland, which God restored (v.2ff) for man's use.

Therefore, the earth is way older than Adam, not just 6 days older.  How old is irrelevant.  Doesn't matter.

And, the earth's age has NOTHING to do with evolution, so the YEC can calm down and ignore what evolutionary scientists say about anything.

The earth is way older than Adam and all without any "evolutionary theory".  

Yes, I agree 110% about "tohu wabohu" and the fact that there was a cataclysm involving destruction and (and I believe not only here but the solar system).  That was the first Earth age (although I do not give credence that we were pre-existing souls but rather that was an angelic age).  This present age as Peter refers to was created for Adam and life was replenished on the face of the earth.  Likewise, the even the post 6-day account has some things to take into consideration: 1) yom usually refers to a day, but can designate a period as well.  2)  I do not read that "on the x day God created....".  Rather it says "the evening and morning was the x day" after that act of creation.  As one "man of the cloth" stated, other nations were pagan and worshipped many gods, so this shows that there was one God who created everything, so was this even a cantation celebrating 6 divisions of creation one for each day of the week culminating in God's resting the seventh day, thus hallowing it?  So what I am saying is the Sabbath day was to worship the true God of creation without specifying when, how long it took, the manner etc. Just that God made all those things and not to read more into it than what's there.

We know the universe is very old based on a simple formula:  t=d/c where t is the time it takes for light to reach us, d is the distance to the celestial object, and c is the speed of light.  Since d is very very vast, so is t in order for the light to reach us. That said, longevity of the universe does not require it to mean that it took God that long to create things (He can if he wants) but this is where I once mentioned passive creation (things forming based on the Laws of nature already in place taking a longer time) or active creation (i.e. an actual being intervening such as making my Seiko watch which the universe won't do on its own in a shorter time).  However, the latter does not imply we are breaking the laws of physics.  Indeed, we need physics to make the watch work - same with life.  

Years ago when cloning was introduced, I immediately recognized that with Adam's rib God cloned him to make a woman.  Lately, when we hear about God preparing the planet for Adam, I recognized this as terra-forming.  It's funny that atheistic man comes up with the same ideas that God had (proving he was created in God's image), but yet believes only he can do it and an all powerful being for some reason can't do the same.  LOL

[teddyv]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

No, I'm pointing out how "tohu wabohu" is translated in Jer 4:23, the ONLY OTHER VERSE in the OT that has these 2 words.

No, whoever wrote Genesis (Moses?) didn't declare anything "formless".  Can you provide an example of any object that is "formless"?  No, you can't.  That is a terrible translation of "tohu".  Such a state does NOT exist in reality.

Yes, "empty" as in an uninhabitable wasteland.  The solution to "formless and empty" is to understand how it was used in Jer 4:23, the ONLY OTHER use of the 2 words and apply it to Gen 1:2, which YEC seem unable to want to do.

So, if "tohu wabohu" was describing original creation (Gen 1:2) then WHY did Jeremiah use those same exact 2 words to describe what a "besieging army" (Jer 4:16) did to "the whole land" (Jer 4:20)?  YEC really need to explain how the 2 words can be used for creation in one text, and then used for total destruction in another text?

That clearly makes no sense.

Here is the text from Jer 43-

7 A lion has come out of his lair; a destroyer of nations has set out. He has left his place to lay waste your land. Your towns will lie in ruins without inhabitant. 

8 So put on sackcloth, lament and wail, for the fierce anger of the LORDhas not turned away from us. 

9 “In that day,” declares the LORD, “the king and the officials will lose heart, the priests will be horrified, and the prophets will be appalled.” 

10 Then I said, “Alas, Sovereign LORD! How completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our throats!” 

11 At that time this people and Jerusalem will be told, “A scorching wind from the barren heights in the desert blows toward my people, but not to winnow or cleanse; 

12 a wind too strong for that comes from me. Now I pronounce my judgments against them.” 

13 Look! He advances like the clouds, his chariots come like a whirlwind, his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us! We are ruined! 

14 Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved. How long will you harbor wicked thoughts? 

15 A voice is announcing from Dan, proclaiming disaster from the hills of Ephraim. 

16 “Tell this to the nations, proclaim concerning Jerusalem: ‘A besieging army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah. 

17 They surround her like men guarding a field, because she has rebelled against me,’ ” declares the LORD. 

18 “Your own conduct and actions have brought this on you. This is your punishment. How bitter it is! How it pierces to the heart!” 

19 Oh, my anguish, my anguish! I writhe in pain. Oh, the agony of my heart! My heart pounds within me, I cannot keep silent. For I have heard the sound of the trumpet; I have heard the battle cry. 

20 Disaster follows disaster; the whole land lies in ruins. In an instant my tents are destroyed, my shelter in a moment. 

21 How long must I see the battle standard and hear the sound of the trumpet? 

22 “My people are fools; they do not know me. They are senseless children; they have no understanding. They are skilled in doing evil; they know not how to do good.” 

23 I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone.

I have color coded the text.  The red words refer to the invading army that destroys the land.

The blue words refer to the result from invading the land.

Please don't tell me that "tohu wabohu" means "formless and empty".  How could a beseiging army render the land "formless"?

Rather, just look at all the blue words.  That's what they did to the land.

Perhaps "chaos" is a better term. Or disorderly. God took the chaos of the primordial, pre creation and then ordered/formed and filled it.

This is consistent but also radically different from the prevailing creation myths of the day.

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

Perhaps "chaos" is a better term. Or disorderly. God took the chaos of the primordial, pre creation and then ordered/formed and filled it.

This is consistent but also radically different from the prevailing creation myths of the day.

Definitely was a shapeless mess 

[FreeGrace]

59 minutes ago, teddyv said:

Perhaps "chaos" is a better term. Or disorderly. God took the chaos of the primordial, pre creation and then ordered/formed and filled it.

Fact:  There is no such thing as a "primordial pre creation".  

Fact:  The words "ordered" and "formed" are NOT equivalent.  And "filled" is rather irrelevant.

Fact:  tohu wabohu is used for the condition of the earth BEFORE the 6 days even began.  And it is used in Jer 4:23 to describie what a besieging army did to the "whole land".  I gave all the context verses that prove that the army destroyed the land, which would leave the land a "wasteland".

One cannot apply "tohu wabohu" to original creation AND the result of an invading army that destroyed the land of Israel.  That makes no sense.  The 2 words mean the SAME THING.  

59 minutes ago, teddyv said:

This is consistent but also radically different from the prevailing creation myths of the day.

I'm not talking about or interested in the "prevailing creation myths of the day", so why do you bring this up?

Can you just deal with the FACT that "tohu wabohu" is used in Gen 1:2 AND Jer 4:23, so therefore does mean the same thing.

It can't refer to original creation in one text and the effect of a destroying army in another text.

[BeyondET]

5 hours ago, SavedOnebyGrace said:

(Jeremiah 4:23)  I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.
(Jeremiah 4:24)  I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, and all the hills moved to and fro. [ESV]

So the verses around Jeremiah are interesting. The verses around Jeremiah 4:23 are interesting. The Earth was present but the sky had no light from the Moon or stars. The Earth was without form and void, but it did have mountains, hills and earthquakes. Sounds like this was a judgement by God on an earlier creation.

 

A snow ball earth, there is a section of the crust missing.