A Concern for Applying the Bible to the Natural Sciences

[The Barbarian]

30 minutes ago, Scott Free said:

If Adam is a type of Christ the following comparison is plausible.

Christ is often seen as "the new Adam."
1 Corinthians 15:45 The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.

[Scott Free]

Just now, The Barbarian said:

Christ is often seen as "the new Adam."

In addition, Eve's story reads different when read in Hebrew. The word used for 'rib' means 'half.' The same word is used the describe the two poles that hold up the Ark and the two massive doors at the entrance of the Temple. It seems we are simply being told God made a duplicate using Adam as the source template. Also, Eve was described as Adams rescuer.

[RV_Wizard]

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Only when genetics showed that all living things on Earth (so far as we've so far found) have a common ancestor, did scientists accept it as true. 

All living things on earth have a common creator, despite the claims of unbelievers who make claims of a common original progenitor.  You can't remove the common descent claim from evolution because it is the core of evolution.  

Common descent is a term within evolutionary biology which refers to the common ancestry of a particular group of organisms. The process of common decent involves the formation of new species from an ancestral population. When a recent common ancestor is shared between two organisms, they are said to be closely related. In contrast, common descent can also be traced back to a universal common ancestor of all living organisms using molecular genetic methods.  source

We’ve defined evolution as descent with modification from a common ancestor... source

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

   Darwin, for example, said that God just created the first living things. 

Moses, for example, recorded that God created ALL living things.  Man did not evolve from anything.  Man was created from the dust of the earth in the image of God.  To claim that an had another ancestor is heresy.

 

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

I showed you that there is very good evidence for the flood. 

You posted untruths about a local flood.... on low lying ground with easy run off to the sea.  As with nearly everything else you post, it is direct contrast to what is recorded in the Bible.

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Nothing in evolutionary theory denies the fall of man. 

Either you don't understand one or you don't understand either.  The Bible says that sin and death came into the world through on man; Adam.  You say that the first human evolved over millions of years and shares ancestry with a daffodil.  That's millions of years of pain and death which preceded the event that brought pain and death to the world.  This is why nothing you say is credible.

 

[The Barbarian]

Only when genetics showed that all living things on Earth (so far as we've so far found) have a common ancestor, did scientists accept it as true. 

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

All living things on earth have a common creator

That's what Darwin said.   Glad you've come to agree with him.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

You can't remove the common descent claim from evolution because it is the core of evolution.  

Well, let's take a look...

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.

Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species

You put your faith in man, instead of God.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Moses, for example, recorded that God created ALL living things.

He does.   You just don't approve of the way He does it.

I showed you that there is very good evidence for the flood. 

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

You posted untruths about a local flood.... on low lying ground with easy run off to the sea. 

No, that was your twisting of the evidence.   As with nearly everything else you post, it is direct contrast to what is recorded in the Bible.   Why not just accept it God's way?

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

To claim that an had another ancestor is heresy.

Perhaps you don't know what "heresy" means.   There is nothing whatever in Christian believe to deny the observed fact of evolution.   Humans have evolved and changed for a every long time and we see it continuing now.   Would you like to learn about that?

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

You say that the first human evolved over millions of years and shares ancestry with a daffodil.

Geneticists have found that all living things on Earth have a common ancestor.  That's not evolutionary theory; that's genetics.   Do you remember what Darwin's theory says?    Should I put it up here again for you?

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

That's millions of years of pain and death which preceded the event that brought pain and death to the world. 

As you would know, if you read the Bible, God tells Adam that he will die the day he eats from the tree.   Adam eats but lives on physically for many years thereafter.   If God  speaks the truth, then the death was not a physical one.

But you don't agree with God.   This is why nothing you say is credible.

 

Edited February 25 by The Barbarian

[RV_Wizard]

10 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

That's what Darwin said

Modern evolutionists like you have interwoven common descent as a governing component of evolution.  The theory itself has evolved since Darwin to reject even the original creation, so that its proponents today can come to forums and lie about the plain writing of the Biblical account of creation.  Darwin gave God very little credit but you give Him almost none.  You may allow that He could have created the first living cell, but other than that, nothing.  You believe man and milkweeds share common ancestry.  You proclaim such en masse to try and convince Christians that their Bible is wrong an you are right.

The word of God is truth.  Nobody who disagrees with truth can state the truth; only falsehoods.

Moses recorded in Genesis that God created man and woman from the beginning of creation.  Jesus affirmed that God created man and woman from the beginning and intended them to be as one.  You say that man evolved over millions of years.  No intelligent person can believe two things in contradiction.  Either they are wrong or you are.  Here is wisdom for all who read this.  The word of God can never be wrong, and your contradictions can never be right.  There is no reason whatever for a Christian to believe in evolution.

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Geneticists have found that all living things on Earth have a common ancestor.

So here you post a lie as if it were a fact.  Geneticists BELIEVE that all living things have a common ancestor.  Believing a lie is not the same as discovering a truth.  The rich man in Luke 16 BELIEVED he would not go to Hell.  He did.  In the end, truth is greater than belief.  You can proclaim your heresy on the mountaintops, but it will never displace the truth that God created the world in six days, rested on the seventh, and created man in His image.  No discover of science can explain the supernatural ability of an omnipotent God.

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

As you would know, if you read the Bible, God tells Adam that he will die the day he eats from the tree.   Adam eats but lives on physically for many years thereafter. 

Repeating the posts from atheist websites again?  God did NOT say that Adam would die the same day he ate from the tree.  That's the same lie Satan used to convince Eve to eat from it.  How is it that you are in a Christian forum posting well known satanic lies?  Moreover, why are you distorting the Scriptures to support the lies?  The verse reads, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."  Not only was Adam's death then assured, but the death of every living being on earth.  Sin and death were ushered into the world by man's sin.  Prior to that, there was no death.  There were no carnivores.  Most Christians learn this from the time they are children and yet you do not understand it.  Why is that?  Do you lack the understanding, or is your anti-Scriptural agenda too strong?

In the end, you will never convince me the Bible is wrong.  I will never convince you the Bible is right.  I only post to you for those who may be reading this with uncertainty; that their faith in God can be re-assured; that the word of God is truth.  I do not pretend that this will prevail.  In the end, the words you and others repeat will lead many to their destruction.  Whereas Christ challenged us to teach others the Gospel, your time is spent trying to convince others that its teachings are false.

Sadly, many will believe you.  I don't expect ANYONE to believe me.  I expect that they would read the Scriptures and learn the truth from the revelation of God. 

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Modern evolutionists like you have interwoven common descent as a governing component of evolution. 

In the sense that genetics, molecular biology, and physiology are "governing components of evolution."    As you learned, it is not part of Darwin's theory at all.   It was discovered by geneticists.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

The theory itself has evolved since Darwin to reject even the original creation

I know you want to believe that, but since many prominent biologists are Christians, your wishes don't correspond to reality.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

You may allow that He could have created the first living cell, but other than that, nothing.

If you read your Bible more often, you'd have learned that God is involved constantly with every particle of the physical universe.   Try to keep up.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

The word of God can never be wrong,

but your revisions of His word are frequently wrong.   You are not God, and you do not speak for Him.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Jesus affirmed that God created man and woman from the beginning and intended them to be as one.

God makes it clear in Genesis 1:1 what was there at the beginning.   And male and female were not there.   You've revised Jesus' statement to fit your new doctrines.   Jesus meant from the beginning of the creation of humans, not the beginning of the creation of the universe.  

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

God did NOT say that Adam would die the same day he ate from the tree. 

Well, let's take a look...

Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

Again, if you'd spend a little time reading the Bible you wouldn't make errors like this.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Not only was Adam's death then assured, but the death of every living being on earth. 

God said nothing about other living things, only Adam.  Stop trying to put words in God's mouth.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

There is no reason whatever for a Christian to believe in evolution.

It's directly observed.    Would you like me to show you some more examples?     If you think there's no reason a Christian should believe the truth, that's a pretty good clue that you have things wrong.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

In the end, you will never convince me the Bible is wrong. 

You seem to have convinced yourself.   You deny a number of things God says in Genesis, for example.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

In the end, the words you and others repeat will lead many to their destruction. 

God doesn't care what you think of evolution.    That's not how your salvation is determined.   Just don't make an idol of YE creationism and demand that other Christians must accept your new doctrine.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

I don't expect ANYONE to believe me.

Given your statements here, it wouldn't be surprising if they didn't.

Tibetans Underwent Fastest Evolution Seen in Humans

Life at high altitudes forced ancient Tibetans to undergo the fastest evolution ever seen in humans, according to a new study.

The most rapid genetic change showed up in the EPAS1 gene, which helps regulate the body's response to a low-oxygen environment. One version, called an allele, of the EPAS1 gene changed in frequency from showing up in 9 percent of the Han Chinese to 87 percent of Tibetans.

Such genetic changes suggest Tibetan ancestors split off from the Han Chinese population about 2,750 years ago, researchers say. But only those most evolutionarily suited for life at high altitudes survived when they moved to the Tibetan Plateau.

"It took only a few hundred generations to change the allele frequency, which can only happen if a lot of people have died," said Rasmus Nielsen, an evolutionary biologist at the University of California at Berkeley. "In that sense, it must have had a strong effect on fitness."

https://www.livescience.com/6663-tibetans-underwent-fastest-evolution-humans.html

'Sea Nomads' Are First Known Humans Genetically Adapted to Diving

Most people can hold their breath underwater for a few seconds, some for a few minutes. But a group of people called the Bajau takes free diving to the extreme, staying underwater for as long as 13 minutes at depths of around 200 feet. These nomadic people live in waters winding through the Philippines, Malaysia, and Indonesia, where they dive to hunt for fish or search for natural elements that can be used in crafts.

Now, a study in the journal Cell offers the first clues that a DNA mutation for larger spleens gives the Bajau a genetic advantage for life in the deep.

https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/science-and-technology/2018/04/sea-nomads-are-first-known-humans-genetically-adapted-to-diving

 

 

Edited February 25 by The Barbarian

[RV_Wizard]

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

not part of Darwin's theory

The discussion is about what is being taught currently by evolutionists, not Darwin.

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

many prominent biologists are Christians,

One doesn't have to reject the Bible to be a biologist.  Biology doesn't require mindless adherence to "molecules-to-man."

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

your revisions of His word are frequently wrong

One of us posts entire passages from the Bible and one posts excepts taken out of context.  The readers know which is dishonest.  I have never posted a revision of the Word.  

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

God makes it clear in Genesis 1:1 what was there at the beginning.   And male and female were not there

Day six is still the beginning of the world.  That's why it's called the creation week.  Do you want to tell more lies about what Jesus taught?

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Well, let's take a look.

So, from all this we conclude that the construction “dying you shall die” and beyôm in Genesis 2:17 do not require us to conclude that God was warning that “the very day you eat from the tree is the exact same day that you will die physically.” The Hebrew wording of Genesis 2:17 allows for a time lapse between the instantaneous spiritual death on that sad day of disobedience and the later physical death (which certainly did happen, just as God said, but for Adam it was 930 years later). As Scripture consistently teaches, both kinds of death (spiritual and physical) are the consequence of Adam’s rebellion. Therefore, Hugh Ross and other old-earth proponents are not correct when they say that spiritual death was the only consequence of Adam’s rebellion at the Fall.  Learn something more about it here

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

God said nothing about other living things, only Adam.

Romans 5:12-19.  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

It's directly observed.

Speciation is observed.  Origins are not observed.  A common progenitor is not observed.  Man coming from apes was never observed.  You say, "because we can get different breeds of dogs by selective breeding that all of humanity shared ancestry with a head of lettuce.  Your religion is foolishness.

[The Barbarian]

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The discussion is about what is being taught currently by evolutionists, not Darwin.

"Evolutionists" currently teach that life is cellular.    They teach that solutions with excess hydrogen ions have  low PH, and that mRNA is decoded to make proteins.

None of which is in evolutionary theory. 

I know you want to believe that, but since many prominent biologists are Christians, and accept the fact of evolution, your wishes don't correspond to reality.

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

One doesn't have to reject the Bible to be a biologist. 

Correct.   Nothing in the Bible contradicts modern biology.

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Biology doesn't require mindless adherence to "molecules-to-man."

There are a very few biologists who are YE creationists.  But you're right, the "molecules to man" beliefs of YE creationists are not part of biology, much less evolutionary theory.   It is part of God's word, though;   He says the earth brought forth living things, including man.

You paste up huge sections of scripture that don't support your new beliefs, but you won't even believe God when He says that Adam would die in the day he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

God makes it clear in Genesis 1:1 what was there at the beginning.   And male and female were not there

(claims that they were there sometime after the beginning)

Sorry, you're trying to put words in His mouth again.   Why not just accept it the way He gives it to us?

God said nothing therein about punishing other living things, only Adam.

(Genesis Romans 5:12-19 includes Adam's descendants, but no other living things)

Yes.   Thought you knew that original sin devolves on all Adam's descendants.    But notice, no other living things.   Do you really think God would subject countless trillions of innocent animals to suffering and death to get even with Adam?  Seriously?

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Speciation is observed.

That's evolution that has proceeded far enough to produce new species.   But biological evolution includes evolution that does not involve the evolution of new taxa.   In fact, many YE creationists now admit the evolution of new genera and sometimes new families.   (They don't like to use the "e-word", though)

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Man coming from apes was never observed. 

The Mississippi valley was never observed to form.   But it did and is.    You're reduced to admitting that a man can walk a mile, but insist that he can't walk a hundred miles because you've never seen anyone do that.

 

Edited February 25 by The Barbarian

[RV_Wizard]

13 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

the fact of evolution

Evolution is a theory and a religion.  It is NOT a fact.  Repeatedly calling it so doesn't make it true.  It only makes you a zealot.

13 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

He says the earth brought forth living things, including man

You are beginning to believe your own claims.  You give credit to the earth, but not to God.  You seem to forget that all the land animals were created in a day, and that man was formed and created by God.  There was a book about this,  You should read it sometime.

13 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

You paste up huge sections of scripture that don't support your new beliefs,

I post complete passages to show that your quotes are out of context and incomplete, and to show that you are repeatedly lying when you claim what I believe is new.  Adam knew he was created by God.  You don't get much older than that.

13 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

you won't even believe God when He says that Adam would die in the day he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

You and Satan make EXACTLY the same argument; that surely die meant immediately die.  That's what Satan said to deceive Eve, and that's what you say to deceive others.  Try quoting Jesus instead.

13 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

God makes it clear in Genesis 1:1 what was there at the beginning.   And male and female were not there

You again prove that you know nothing about the Bible.  Genesis 1:1 Says, "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth."  The creation took six days to fully complete.  Look at Genesis 2:1.  "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."  Genesis two then goes into greater detail about the creation of man.

14 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

God said nothing therein about punishing other living things, only Adam.

The Bible doesn't say SPECIFICALLY either way, only that the creation was very good.  However, we can get an idea when we read Revelation 21:1-4

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Many believe that this was the creation made perfect without sin and death; as the original was intended.  If the fall happened within a few years of the creation, there was no need for anything to have died previously.  How long it was from the creation to the fall we are not told.

14 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

The Mississippi valley was never observed to form.   But it did and is. 

The Bible doesn't say the Mississippi valley was never formed.  It DOES say man was created by God and did not evolve from anything.  You are "teaching" something that is in direct contrast to the Scriptures.  That makes you a false teacher.  If the Scriptures are true, then everything you post is not true.  People can certainly make up their own minds which to believe.  However, I put my faith in the word of God.

[FJK]

16 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

You are beginning to believe your own claims.  You give credit to the earth, but not to God. 

Gaia worship, nothing more than another god to put before God. 

Something we are strongly warned against doing.