RV_Wizard Posted January 31 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 769 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 327 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Share Posted January 31 9 hours ago, The Barbarian said: That's wrong, and it's a very good thing that you are wrong. Because evolution is directly observed in living populations. That is the great lie of evolution; that living things adapt, therefore molecules to man MUST be true. A donkey to a mule to a horse shows progression, so the mule MUST be a transitional life form right? The problem is, mules are sterile. We know this because we still have mules. However, if 99% of all once living things are extinct, how can we differentiate transition from cross breeding? We can't. The fossil record is arranged to show a transition that never happened. All it really shows is that things died. Beyond that it's all subjective. God gave us His word. Jesus attested to its veracity. Man has had the writings of the prophets and the recorded history of his relationship with God since the written language was created. God told us how He created the heavens and the earth in six days, and all that is within it. God Himself carved into stone tablets that He created the world in six days and rested on the seventh, which instituted the Sabbath. God later caused a great flood and provided for the continued existence of life on earth through one man. You believe none of this. Teaching others God's word is instruction. Teaching contrary to God's word is heresy. Claiming that man evolved over billions of years while simultaneously being created by God in His image is nothing short of foolishness. Evolution and creation are entirely different and mutually exclusive explanations for the origin of life. You either believe the Bible or you don't. None of this devalues biology. There is not a single thing we know in biology that would be any different given a Biblical perspective. There is nothing in geology that would be different if God created a planet in its maturity as He did everything else. Science is the study of the PHYSICAL world around us. The Bible tells us of the supernatural things and our eternal destiny, which make our time on this rock like a wisp in the wind. You need to be honest with yourself. There is only one truth about the origin of mankind. Personally, I believe the Creator. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted January 31 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,066 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 970 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31 52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said: That is the great lie of evolution; that living things adapt, therefore molecules to man MUST be true. That is the great lie of YE creationism. Evolution is only about the way living populations change over time. "Molecules to man" is a foolish lie by those who should know better. 53 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said: A donkey to a mule to a horse shows progression, so the mule MUST be a transitional life form right? No wonder you're confused about transitionals. An average middle school science student would know better. For one thing, it's not about "progression." For another, speciation by hybridization is rather uncommon in animals. Much more common in plants. But that's not what "transitional' means. If you knew more about science, you'd be more effective at fighting it. 56 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said: The fossil record is arranged to show a transition that never happened. As your fellow YE creationist, Dr. Kurt Wise admits, the large number of transitional series in the fossil record is "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory." But Dr. Wise actually knows what he's talking about. 57 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said: God told us how He created the heavens and the earth in six days, and all that is within it. No. He says that He did it, but He did not discuss the mechanisms involved. 58 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said: None of this devalues biology. There is not a single thing we know in biology that would be any different given a Biblical perspective. Guess how we know you don't know very much about biology. Dr. Wise, Dr. Wood, and other honest YE creationists admit that there is currently no way to explain things like the fossil record of whales in creationist terms. They suggest that there someday might be, and they are working on that. That is an honest approach. You need to be honest with yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted January 31 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,066 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 970 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31 5 hours ago, Mozart's Starling said: I gotta be blunt, the amount of cognitive dissonance and delusional thinking one has to have to think the creation account of Genesis is in ANY way compatible with evolution is astonishing. If you think so, you don't know much about either. For one thing, we observe evolution going on in living populations all around us. So what you are telling us is that reality is incompatible with the creation account of Genesis. I'm sure you don't want to insult God, but that's what you're doing. You can't serve two masters. Be honest with yourself and pick one. Is it man's account of YE creationism you trust or God's account? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mozart's Starling Posted January 31 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 268 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 219 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/18/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/27/1990 Share Posted January 31 (edited) I was reading Genesis this very day. So our Lord, gives painstaking family lines, exact years, in simple, clear, direct language with little room for any other interpretation throughout Genesis. But on the 7 day creation He chooses to use a commonly accepted period of time, and ACTUALLY mean it to be an indeterminate number of years over any stretch of eras, ages etc. He might as well have told us nothing at all! Barbarian all the scientific speculation and evidence in the world is completely irrelevant to a professing Christian. Your authority is God and His word. Give me a scriptural argument or drop the charade and stop sowing doubt into this community. You could be an Einstein in your scientific field and it would mean less than nothing to me. Edited January 31 by Mozart's Starling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mozart's Starling Posted January 31 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 268 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 219 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/18/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/27/1990 Share Posted January 31 (edited) 2 hours ago, The Barbarian said: If you think so, you don't know much about either. For one thing, we observe evolution going on in living populations all around us. So what you are telling us is that reality is incompatible with the creation account of Genesis. I'm sure you don't want to insult God, but that's what you're doing. You can't serve two masters. Be honest with yourself and pick one. Is it man's account of YE creationism you trust or God's account? See my above post meant to quote you. Edited January 31 by Mozart's Starling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted January 31 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,066 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 970 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31 10 hours ago, Mozart's Starling said: I was reading Genesis this very day. So our Lord, gives painstaking family lines, exact years, in simple, clear, direct language with little room for any other interpretation throughout Genesis. You've just assumed your wishes are the only possible interpretation. I get that. But it's the wrong way to go about reading Genesis. 10 hours ago, Mozart's Starling said: But on the 7 day creation He chooses to use a commonly accepted period of time, and ACTUALLY mean it to be an indeterminate number of years over any stretch of eras, ages etc. I understand you want to believe that. But the text itself rejects such an interpretation. 10 hours ago, Mozart's Starling said: Barbarian all the scientific speculation and evidence in the world is completely irrelevant to a professing Christian. Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. Now it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics, and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn... If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe our books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren, ... to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call on Holy Scripture, .. although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. St. Augustine De Genesi ad Litteram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted February 1 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 769 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 327 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Share Posted February 1 What did Jesus believe about the Scriptures? He knew the Scriptures thoroughly, even to words and verb tenses. He obviously had either memorized vast portions or knew it instinctively: John 7:15.2 He believed every word of Scripture. All the prophecies concerning Himself were fulfilled,3 and He believed beforehand they would be.4 He believed the Old Testament was historical fact. This is very clear, even though from the Creation (cf. Genesis 2:24 and Matthew 19:4, 5) onward, much of what He believed has long been under fire by critics, as being mere fiction. Some examples of historical facts:.... He believed the Old Testament was spoken by God Himself, or written by the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, even though the pen was held by men: Matthew 19:4, 5; 22:31, 32, 43; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37. He believed Scripture was more powerful than His miracles: Luke 16:29, 31. He actually quoted it in overthrowing Satan! The O.T. Scriptures were the arbiter in every dispute: Matthew 4; Luke 16:29, 31. He quoted Scripture as the basis for his own teaching. His ethics were the same as what we find already written in Scripture: Matthew 7:12; 19:18, 19; 22:40; Mark 7:9, 13; 10:19; 12:24, 29–31; Luke 18:20. He warned against replacing it with something else, or adding or subtracting from it. The Jewish leaders in His day had added to it with their Oral Traditions: Matthew 5:17; 15:1–9; 22:29; (cf. Matthew 5:43, 44); Mark 7:1–12. (Destroying faith in the Bible as God’s Word will open the door today to a “new” Tradition.) He will judge all men in the last day, as Messiah and King, on the basis of His infallible Word committed to writing by fallible men, guided by the infallible Holy Spirit: Matthew 25:31; John 5:22, 27; 12:48; Romans 2:16. He made provision for the New Testament (B’rit Hadashah) by sending the Holy Spirit (the Ruach HaKodesh). We must note that He Himself never wrote one word of Scripture although He is the Word of God Himself (the living Torah in flesh and blood, see John, chapter 1). He committed the task of all writing of the Word of God to fallible men—guided by the infallible Holy Spirit. The apostles” words had the same authority as Christ’s: Matthew 10:14, 15; Luke 10:16; John 13:20; 14:22; 15:26, 27; 16:12–14. source So by this we know that Jesus considered the Scriptures to be accurate and the inspired word of God. The word of the Creator takes precedence over spurious claims of men who foolishly claim a natural formation of a universe that was created by supernatural forces. The fact is, if the world IS a supernatural creation, science can never be right about its origin. For example, on day three God created trees bearing fruit. It takes a fruit tree 6-9 years to bear fruit, so He created a mature tree. Adam could walk and talk an instant after his creation, so God created Adam in his mature form. God told the birds, fish and animals to be fruitful and multiply, which means they were created in their maturity. God created a planet in its maturity; fully capable of supporting life. If you walked through the plush garden of Eden, you would think it had grown up over several decades, even though it was mere hours or days old. The elephants which were sent forth to multiply were at least 18 years old when they were created. If there were oak trees there, they could well have been 100 years old on their creation day. The ultimate authority is not the creation, but the Creator. The Heavens declare the glory of the Lord. The stars and planets are not evolved from chaos but created with order in very specific patterns. We can look at the planets in our solar system and we know that they do not all rotate in the same direction. According to the law of angular motion, had they come from a central source, scientifically they would all rotate in the same way. However, they do not. God leaves clues for His miracles for those who will believe. For the non-believer, no evidence will ever be enough. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted February 2 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,066 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 970 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2 On 1/31/2024 at 6:50 PM, RV_Wizard said: The ultimate authority is not the creation, but the Creator. The Heavens declare the glory of the Lord. The stars and planets are not evolved from chaos but created with order in very specific patterns. We can look at the planets in our solar system and we know that they do not all rotate in the same direction. According to the law of angular motion, had they come from a central source, scientifically they would all rotate in the same way. Assuming no collisions or interactions with other bodies in the system. Which is an unwarranted assumption. I notice again that you have conflated "literal history" and "true." And this is what continues to lead you astray. Jesus' parable were not false because they were figurative. God's description of creation is not false because it's figurative. Just let it be the way He gave it to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted February 2 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 769 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 327 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Share Posted February 2 8 hours ago, The Barbarian said: Jesus' parable were not false because they were figurative. God's description of creation is not false because it's figurative. It's only figurative for you because you refuse to God's word over your professors' words. Biology claims there was no Adam; that man evolved from simpler primates over time. What does the Bible say about Adam? Is he real or a figure? Genesis 1:26-27 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Genesis 2:19-23 Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” 1 Corinthians 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Timothy 2:13-14 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Jude 1:14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, Luke 3:38 The son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. Acts 17:26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Timothy 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; Matthew 19:4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, Ezekiel 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. Moses didn't write bedtime fables. The creation of man from dust and the subsequent fall of man are pivotal in Christian theology. Sin and death came into the world through Adam. Before that, there was no sin, there was no death. Nothing, having been born, ever died. You can't discard Genesis and claim to believe in the rest of the Bible because the events in Genesis lead to the reasons Christ came to earth. By the way, the lase verse posted validates my assertion that all the precious stones and all the resources in the earth were there on day one. The creation exalts the glory of the Creator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted February 2 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,066 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 970 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2 (edited) 3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: It's only figurative for you because you refuse to God's word over your professors' words. Actually, when St. Augustine pointed out (for example) that the "days" of creation could not be literal, there were no "professors" as such. You deny God's word and the wisdom of ancient Christians for your modern, man-made doctrine. 3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: Moses didn't write bedtime fables. He didn't. But some today have revised his words to try to justify their new YE beliefs. Why not just accept God's word as it is? 3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: By the way, the lase verse posted validates my assertion that all the precious stones and all the resources in the earth were there on day one. No, you just re-interpreted it to fit your wishes. In fact, things like opalized shells, coal and peat deposits, and many other things make you new ideas impossible. Let it be God's way and it won't bother you any longer. Edited February 2 by The Barbarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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