Are you sure that you shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

[Buzzard3]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

That is exactly right! I have heard it said various times that the early church fathers believed this or that, only to find that it either wasn't necessarily so or there were Church fathers that said pretty much the opposite! So that is really a non sequitur.

(another thing I've found often is someone will say, "This teaching wasn't around until recently and the church fathers didn't believe that" - only to find some church fathers actually did believe it)

CC: @Buzzard3

Which Early Church Father preached salvation through faith alone, as Protestants do?   The doctrine of salvation through faith alone was unheard in the first 1500 years of Christmas  - it didn't appear until the Reformation.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Buzzard3]

On 10/11/2023 at 4:51 PM, Michael37 said:

We are saved by grace through faith, not of works lest anyone should boast. If someone stops abiding in the Vine, they are not recipients of saving grace.

The faith plus works doctrine puts people back under the law.

Gal 2:16  know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal 2:21  I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness comes through the law, Christ died for nothing.

Gal 5:4  You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

 

... yet Paul says Christians are obliged to fulfill "the law":

"Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.   The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”  Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."  (Romans 13:8-10)

 

Please explain. 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buzzard3

[AdHoc]

32 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said:

Which Early Church Father preached salvation through alone, as Protestants do?   The doctrine of salvation through faith alone was unheard of prior to the Reformation.

The problem with one-liners is that they put very different things in one box. The result is confusion. A bankrupt man falls into a flooding torrent. Another man on a bridge downstream throws him a rope. He is saved. When the local newspaper reports on this and says that he was "saved", nobody would think that he was saved  from bankruptcy.

Likewise, it is clear that a man is "saved" by Faith in Ephesians 2:8 - but you must define what he was saved from and how. If you don't, you make a confusion of Matthew 19:23-26 were the rich man, who had done everything right (and who was loved by the Lord) would not enter the Kingdom. But the Apostles, and scripture say that in this case he would not be saved. Giving away your wealth is a WORK.

Maybe you should consider the arguments of @Vine Abider and others. They are reasonable, scriptural and reconcile scripture that your theory cannot.

16 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said:

... yet Paul says Christians are obliged to fulfill "the law":

"Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.   The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”  Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."  (Romans 13:8-10)

 

Please explain. 

 

 

We will believe that you are sincere, but you seem to pit scripture against scripture. But the reason for Paul's argument here is because the problem at Rome was that the Church had formed by the movement of the Holy Spirit before Paul got there. The Jewish faction in Rome adhered to the Law, and refused to meet with the ex-gentile faction. This caused a division in the Church that ruined the testimony of "the unity of the Spirit" (Eph.4).

Also, the Jews in dispersion were known for their resistance to foreign kings. The Jews in foreign cities were apt to consider the Gentiles as "Goyim"  - literally "Cattle" and were apt not to pay their debts to these men of lesser estate. The Pharisees had approached our Lord Jesus about paying tribute to Caesar, not taking into account that Caesars presence was a chastisement for their sins. Instead, they thought to thwart Caesar - trying to simulate Daniel in Babylon.

Paul answers that the new "oikonomia" (the way God was dealing with His Church) entailed loving friend and enemy alike - and paying what you owed. This way God's testimony was to be upheld. And if any thought differently, the Law that they so clung to, was in summary, the same. If you paid your debts promptly, and loved all men, you would fulfill the law too. The Law of Moses consists of three sections; (i) Give God His due, (ii) give men their due, and (iii) give the earth (or the Land) its due. Love covers all three and is the perfect motivation to achieve what God had always wanted.

At no time is there a thought that any Roman Believers must keep the Law to be saved.

So, my friend, you joined this Forum and are hearing new ideas. Don't dismiss them because you never heard the before. Take them into your closet and chew over them. WE are not your enemies. In Matthew 13 the Lord showed His Kingdom in its growth state, in this age, by 7 parables. The first four parables are all negative. That is, the Kingdom and its teaching would be tampered with. Take this to heart and take your time to see if @Vine Abider and the others have an argument. Church fathers are not to be trusted any more than the President of the Dallas Theological Seminary. It's up to every individual to be satisfied by God's Word alone

[Buzzard3]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

At no time is there a thought that any Roman Believers must keep the Law to be saved

In Romans 13:8-10, Paul tells Christians they are obliged to obliged to fulfill "the law" to love one another, which includes some of the Ten Commandments:

"Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.   The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”  Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."  

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Buzzard3]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

it is clear that a man is "saved" by Faith in Ephesians 2:8 - but you must define what he was saved from and how.

In Ephesians 2:8, you must also define what is meant by "faith". 

It is clear from James 2 that no one is saved by faith alone:

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? (v.14)  ... 

a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (v.24) ... 

faith without works is dead" (v.26).

Furthermore, James 2 says faith cannot be "completed" without works (v.22).

 

So when Eph 2:8 says "saved through faith", it doesn't mean through faith alone, but through faith and works - aka faith and obedience (ie, keeping God's commandments - 1John 2:3-6).  To claim that we are saved through faith alone is to claim that we are saved by dead faith.

Like James, Paul clearly preaches salvation through faith and works in Gal 5:19-21 and 1Cor 6:9-11.

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

In Romans 13:8-10, Paul tells Christians they are obliged to obliged to fulfill "the law" to love one another, which includes some of the Ten Commandments:

"Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.   The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”  Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."  

This is a perfect example of making scripture to mean something else. The word "obliged" is not there. The command to fulfill the Law is not there. The grammar says that if you owe all men love THEN you have fulfilled the law.

But now you can answer a question for me. You are a Christian. Do you keep the Law? How much did you give out to go down to Jerusalem three times this year to celebrate the Feasts?

5 But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come: 6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks: 7 And there ye shall eat before the LORD your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the LORD thy God hath blessed thee. 8 Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes. (Dt 12:5–8)

How was the Feasts.? Was your tithe a big one? How beautiful did "God's habitation" look? You know - the Temple? OR DID YOU DO WHAT WAS RIGHT IN YOUR OWN EYES. And if not, having broken this grand law of tithes, are you not guilty of all?

And if you dare to have complied with this, which you can't seeing as God's habitation lies in ruins with not one stone left upon another, how is it with your vows? Did you keep Moses and take vows? For if you have kept Jesus and not taken vows, you are a Lawbreaker and guilty of all!

Brother - a friendly word. You always know if you've gone down a wrong road. Things get absurd. And if you teach yourself to see into scripture what you want, you'll get good at it. But the end of it always bad.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Buzzard3 said:

In Ephesians 2:8, you must also define what is meant by "faith". 

It is clear from James 2 that no one is saved by faith alone:

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? (v.14)  ... 

a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (v.24) ... 

faith without works is dead" (v.26).

Furthermore, James 2 says faith cannot be "completed" without works (v.22).

 

So when Eph 2:8 says "saved through faith", it doesn't mean through faith alone, but through faith and works - aka faith and obedience (ie, keeping God's commandments - 1John 2:3-6).  To claim that we are saved through faith alone is to claim that we are saved by dead faith.

Like James, Paul clearly preaches salvation through faith and works in Gal 5:19-21 and 1Cor 6:9-11.

"Faith" is defined in Hebrews 11:1. But it is applied two ways. In Ephesians 2:8 it is already established by its AUTHOR and given to you - for it is a GIFT. But if Joseph is nearly murdered and is sold by his brothers, if he is enslaved and imprisoned unjustly, and this over a period of 21 years, and he can say to his brothers that "they meant it for evil, but God meant it for good", then he exercises FAITH that God is Supreme in creation AND circumstances. He would be well within his right to have his brother's slaughtered, but what he BELIEVED caused him to rather bless his brothers.

This second example is what is meant by James. He says that FAITH will end in WORKS. But was this the case of the malefactor who was crucified with Christ? What works did he do? And yet he landed in paradise "that day". He is a classic example of what we all have been telling you. He acknowledged Jesus as King. He acknowledged his belief in the resurrection. For this he was "saved". But no word is said by the Lord about him ENTERING THE KINGDOM. He was not Baptized and he admitted that his work were worthy of death.

So also the rich man of Matthew 19. he acknowledges the Person of Jesus. he desires eternal life. Notice the grammar. It is; "what can I do to HAVE eternal life". But our Lord answers how to ENTER life. BY WORKS! And what ever your views of ENTERING Life are, the fact is that in this discourse the Lord Jesus used it INTERCHANGEABLY with THE KINGDOM. That is, the rich man acknowledgment of Jesus as God caused him to HAVE eternal life. Now it became a case of ENTERING the kingdom - a matter of keeping the Law - for he was a man under Law. When he said that he had kept the Law, our Lord Jesus introduces the difference between ENTERING Israel and ENTERING the Kingdom of Heaven. He must give up his worldly wealth - WORKS.

FAITH saves a man from God's retribution and grants him eternal life. WORKS gives him a place in the KINGDOM. So, when you come to the warnings in 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5, the issue is not losing your salvation. It is being cast out of the KINGDOM.

[Buzzard3]

10 hours ago, AdHoc said:

This is a perfect example of making scripture to mean something else. The word "obliged" is not there. The command to fulfill the Law is not there.

 [Unaccepted Exclamation Edited] connect the dots!   Why on earth would the writer say loving one another "fulfills the law" if there is no law Christians are obliged to fulfill? 

 

Furthermore, we are commanded by the Lord himself to love one another:

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."  (John 13:34)

Since there is a commandment that Christians are obliged to obey, there is law that Christians are obliged to obey.  

Quote

The grammar says that if you owe all men love THEN you have fulfilled the law.

What??  Verse 8 says "he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law", then the writer cites some of the Ten Commandments as examples of how you love your neighbour.   

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Michael37
Unaccepted Exclamation

[Buzzard3]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But now you can answer a question for me. You are a Christian. Do you keep the Law?

The morals laws of Moses are eternal and therefore apply to Christians - the Ten Commandments, for example.   Christians are still obliged to obey the two greatest commandments - love God and love your neighbour - moral laws of Moses.

 

Jesus said he did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.  The life, death and resurrection of Jesus did away with the ceremonial and ritual laws of Moses, some of which you mentioned - however, the moral laws remain.  Notice that none of the commandments Jesus mentions to the rich young man in Matt 19:16-22 are from the ritual or ceremonial laws of Moses - they are from the Ten Commandments- ie, the moral laws of Moses.  Likewise in Romans 13:8-10 ... only the moral laws of Moses are mentioned.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Buzzard3]

10 hours ago, AdHoc said:

This second example is what is meant by James. He says that FAITH will end in WORKS. But was this the case of the malefactor who was crucified with Christ? What works did he do?

He publicly declared that Jesus was an innocent man and publicly declared that Jesus is his Saviour - that is works.  

Besides that, using an exceptional case like the thief on the cross is hardly grounds for an argument against salvation through faith and works.  If a baby dies, will God condemn it to eternity in hell bcoz it didn't believe in Jesus?  God will save whomsoever he wants to save.  

Quote

FAITH saves a man from God's retribution and grants him eternal life. WORKS gives him a place in the KINGDOM.

So dead faith ("faith without works is dead") gets you eternal life.   That's a fascinating doctrine (to say the least).

 Martin "faith alone" Luther hated the epistle of James and wanted it removed from the Bible - surprise, surprise.

 

Your "dead faith = eternal life" doctrine is clearly contradicted by 1John 2:3-6 ...

"And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

 

Your "dead faith = eternal life" doctrine means that a believer can lead a life filled with the worst kinds of sin and evil and still be granted eternal life, doesn't it?  

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Buzzard3