Eating Unclean Food Is an Abomination to the Lord!

[The_Patriot21]

1 hour ago, Slibhin said:

You also enjoy shooting animals for fun, so I can understand why you don't see the inherent cruelty. Regardless, I didn't write the Torah so take it up with G-d.

Actually, yes I do-not only is hunting s favorite hobby of mine, but wild meat also is some of my favorite foods.

I'm not the only one, there are many characters from the Bible (including the Torah) that enjoyed hunting, from Esau to king David.

We arnt the vegetarians we were before the fall, we can now eat meat. And as a matter of fact, under levitical rule the killing of animals was necessary for the remission of sins. And the sacrifices were indeed eaten, by the Levites.

I fail to see what the difference is between hunting and buying food from the store. An animal dies either way, my way just means I do all the work, and I get to enjoy God's wonderful creation while I'm doing it.

Or is it the fact that I'm not totally self sufficient upon the government for my food the problem?

 

 

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

52 minutes ago, The_Patriot21 said:

You act like the goat is a sentient animal.

It's not. It's a goat. 

And it's milk. 

How am I acting? You said goats milk in the general sense of milk, it said ITS MOTHERS MILK

It IS a goat, and it "has" milk, you both eat a goat and drink its milk. What human with any sense of compassion intentionally milks a mother goat just to boil her own young in it, that's just psycho. 

Jeffrey Dahmer might enjoy boiling a baby goat in its mothers milk.

I think this angel might believe this ass is a sentient creature 

Acts 22:33 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:

Numbers 22:33 And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive.

We have a four legged ass and a two legged one with a well deserved crushed foot for not minding his sentient beast

 

 

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

3 hours ago, Slibhin said:

You also enjoy shooting animals for fun, so I can understand why you don't see the inherent cruelty. Regardless, I didn't write the Torah so take it up with G-d.

Esau was a hunter and Isaac enjoyed eating his venison correct?

I have a friend who hunts to eat, he does not buy meat at the grocery store, the forest is his grocery store, he enjoys the sport of it but doesn't kill for sport alone but eats what he kills.  Someone has to kill the meat you eat regardless.

Are you a vegetarian?

[FJK]

9 hours ago, Slibhin said:

You are completely incorrect. There is no evidence that this was a Canaanite practice nor a practice of any pagans.

There's a lot of credible evidence available on the Internet by people far more educated in the subject than either you or I, and since I'm not educated in the subject I have to rely on those with credentials in it for my information.

FWIW, I don't see how a dead animal is being cooked relates to animal cruelty, cruelty usually involving how a living animal is treated, or how it is slaughtered,so you'll have to go more into depth on that particular subject here for me to understand what your (and Jewish) thinking is about this.

BTW, I've been wondering what the difference between Kosher and Halal food is and whether Jews area allowed to eat Halal as well as Kosher (just curiosity, not an important point of any kind).

I generally try to follow Biblical dietary laws, I figure that God made them for a reason and since I don't know what that reason is I'm better off trying to follow them instead of ignore them.

May the Lord shine his light on you today , bring you happiness and keep you in safety.

 

[AnOrangeCat]

10 hours ago, Slibhin said:

The reason is because G-d forbids animal cruelty, plain and simple. Cooking an animal in it's own mothers milk is is extremely ghoulish and cruel. The reason we don't mix is to avoid accidentally breaking this law. G-d hates animal cruelty so much that avoiding it is one of the Noahide laws that even non-Jews are required to adhere to.

Again, not really looking to debate with anyone here, but this is something I've come to believe rather strongly as well, and it's a part of my own recent attempts to transition to a meat free diet. There's multiple OT references regarding the treatment of animals, and as I understand it the Kosher method of slaughtering animals very much works to minimize any suffering on the animal's part. We even see an apparent nod to this in the New Testament where we're told that not even a sparrow falls without our Creator taking notice.

[The_Patriot21]

5 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

How am I acting? You said goats milk in the general sense of milk, it said ITS MOTHERS MILK

It IS a goat, and it "has" milk, you both eat a goat and drink its milk. What human with any sense of compassion intentionally milks a mother goat just to boil her own young in it, that's just psycho. 

Jeffrey Dahmer might enjoy boiling a baby goat in its mothers milk.

I think this angel might believe this ass is a sentient creature 

Acts 22:33 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:

Numbers 22:33 And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive.

We have a four legged ass and a two legged one with a well deserved crushed foot for not minding his sentient beast

 

 

 

It's still a goat...it's still milk...the mother's milk, is really only a problem in your head.

Balaam's donkey doesn't prove sentience. I think we're all pretty sure that it wasn't really the donkey doing the talking

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

6 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

It's still a goat...it's still milk...the mother's milk, is really only a problem in your head.

Balaam's donkey doesn't prove sentience. I think we're all pretty sure that it wasn't really the donkey doing the talking

As much as bringing up the obvious having no need to be written in my eyes, I did not write the scripture.

And that has absolutely nothing to do with the voice of the donkey, how is it that you think the voice coming from the donkey has anything to do with what the Angel said to Balaam concerning his donkey?

You bring up sentience

Sentience is animal consciousness, or animal awareness, is the quality or state of self-awareness within an animal, or of being aware of an external object or something within itself.

Who saw the angel?

Numbers 22:33 And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive.

If anything Balaam lacked the qualities you claim animals do not possess

Numbers 21:21 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.

Says this

Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.

Not to mention people without natural affection respond more to stories about cruelty using animals in them to see their own lack of empathy

Similar to when the LORD sent the prophet Nathan to point out how utterly heartless a thing he had done could be compared to.

2 Sam 12:1 And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.

The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:

2 Sam 2:13 But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.

Perhaps a little "senti"mental but the story is used by the LORD 

2 Sam 2:14 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.

2 Sam 12:5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:

And ofcouse "Thou art the man"David

The lack of awareness is in Balaam and David, the animals here are pretty much shown as abused or used in a story to actually get the real beasts (the men) to repent of their own doings.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by AFlameOfFire
typos

[farouk]

"For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein." (Hebrews 13.9)

[Anne2]

7 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

It's still a goat...it's still milk...the mother's milk, is really only a problem in your head.

Balaam's donkey doesn't prove sentience. I think we're all pretty sure that it  wasn't really the donkey doing the talking

I believe the issue is animal cruelty in the bible. For myself, I have been in the meat business, of the type that was from the farm, to the cooler to age and then, process for home freezer. So I have seen animal slaughter. For myself, the methods used as cutting the throat, I seen one time, as it was Muslims. I had to leave. To me that was slow and hard to see. The animals being brought i9n from farms, killed in the field, were shot between the eyes. Dead instantly. For me, it seemed more humane. Usda for commercial kill floors use a stun gun, then slit the throat. That too, seems more humane than just slitting the throat. But, when it comes to kosher, the blood is pumped out by the heart until of course it stops beating (it is slow). Same is true of a stunned animal. Therefore getting as much blood out as possible. The hunting method of bow and arrow bothers me the most. But thgere is the bow and arrow season. That imo is just cruel. when there are much better available.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Anne2

[Bro.Tan]

On 11/20/2023 at 7:06 PM, AFlameOfFire said:

I still cannot make sense of what you are trying to say,  or what point you are trying to make here. I have no argument with Jesus words there, or either verses of scripture you posted., as far as Romans 4:5, I am just posting that one in its context

Romans 4:3 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:4 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Romans 4:5 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Not catching how they might apply to bacon, but when you mention the statutes and judgments as being on the table do you mean these?

Because the wording around the statutes and judgments as shown here, are mentioned in the same manner in the NT by Paul (last 4 verses see below)

Leviticus 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

Neh 9:26 And testifiedst against them, that thou mightest bring them again unto thy law: yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto thy commandments, but sinned against thy judgments, (which if a man do, he shall live in them;) and withdrew the shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear.

Ezekiel 20:11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.

Ezekiel 20:13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury  upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Exekiel 20:21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.

Mentioned in the New testament this way

Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Again, mentioned in the New testament this way

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

And again mentioned in the New testament this way

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

There is an interesting one I left out Neh 10:29 because I do not know what's going on there yet, I will post that one on its own below.

 

I'll just add to that in Deuteronomy 30: 10 if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 

 

Also Paul says in (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. 

And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. (See exodus 20: 1-17)