Rev 16:18 suggests the earth is much older than Adam/Eve

[FreeGrace]

Rev 16:18 - And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake.   English Standard Version

If Genesis 1 is the acccount of original creation, then why didn't John just say "since the creation of the earth", since Genesis 1:1 does begin with original creation.  Why even mention man at all?  Of course there was no earthquake at all between day 1 and day 6 when Adam was created.  

However, when one realizes that v.2ff is actually describing a restoration of an earth that "BECAME an UNINHABITABLE WASTELAND", as the Hebrew words are translated elsewhere in Scripture, then we see that it is possible that there WERE earthquakes BEFORE Adam was created.  This supports an undetermined time gap between 1:1 and 1:2.

Words mean things.  And this verse gives support to an earth very much older than Adam.

 

[Tristen]

8 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Rev 16:18 - And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake.   English Standard Version

If Genesis 1 is the acccount of original creation, then why didn't John just say "since the creation of the earth", since Genesis 1:1 does begin with original creation.  Why even mention man at all?  Of course there was no earthquake at all between day 1 and day 6 when Adam was created.  

However, when one realizes that v.2ff is actually describing a restoration of an earth that "BECAME an UNINHABITABLE WASTELAND", as the Hebrew words are translated elsewhere in Scripture, then we see that it is possible that there WERE earthquakes BEFORE Adam was created.  This supports an undetermined time gap between 1:1 and 1:2.

Words mean things.  And this verse gives support to an earth very much older than Adam.

 

"Words" do indeed "mean things".

The "words" used in Revelation 16:18 "mean" there will be "a great earthquake" the likes of which humans have "never" previously experienced.

The "words" used in Revelation 16:18 do not "mean" there was "a restoration of an earth that "BECAME an UNINHABITABLE WASTELAND""; nor that "that there WERE earthquakes BEFORE Adam was created". These ideas do not come from the verse itself (i.e. the "words" of the verse), but from outside of the verse.

 

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, Tristen said:

"Words" do indeed "mean things".

The "words" used in Revelation 16:18 "mean" there will be "a great earthquake" the likes of which humans have "never" previously experienced.

The "words" used in Revelation 16:18 do not "mean" there was "a restoration of an earth that "BECAME an UNINHABITABLE WASTELAND""; nor that "that there WERE earthquakes BEFORE Adam was created". These ideas do not come from the verse itself (i.e. the "words" of the verse), but from outside of the verse.

 

Look at every English translation on biblehub.com and see how the verse is translated.  As I pointed out, why even mention ""since man was on the earth" if the earth was created just 6 literal wr hour days before Adam?  

The FACT that John pointed out a reference point about "since man was on earth" shows that there is more to the story than man being created just 6 days after God created earth.

There would be no need to even mention "man on the earth" if the earth is 6 days older than Adam because we have the whole narrative of man being created after the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland, and needing restoration.

By saying "since man was on earth" clearly suggests there could have been worse earthquakes BEFORE man was on earth.

That is my point.

[Tristen]

On 12/11/2023 at 11:33 PM, FreeGrace said:

Look at every English translation on biblehub.com and see how the verse is translated.  As I pointed out, why even mention ""since man was on the earth" if the earth was created just 6 literal wr hour days before Adam?  

The FACT that John pointed out a reference point about "since man was on earth" shows that there is more to the story than man being created just 6 days after God created earth.

There would be no need to even mention "man on the earth" if the earth is 6 days older than Adam because we have the whole narrative of man being created after the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland, and needing restoration.

By saying "since man was on earth" clearly suggests there could have been worse earthquakes BEFORE man was on earth.

That is my point.

I understand your "point". Revelation 16:18 is worded in such a way that it leaves open the mere possibility that there was a period before humans with massive earthquakes.

The problem for me is, when you say, "words mean things", you imply that everyone who disagrees with your conclusions is being somehow unreasonable - i.e. not understanding how "words" work.

In reality however, the "words" used in Revelation 16:18 do not "mean" that there was a period before humans with massive earthquakes. This concept is neither stated, nor implied, nor suggested, nor insinuated in any way by the "words" used in Revelation 16:18. 

The "words" in Revelation 16:18 "mean" that there will be an earthquake the likes of which humans have never seen. That is the scope and intent of the "words" used in Revelation 16:18. That is literally what the "words mean". Ideas about a time before humans is beyond the scope and intent of the actual "words" used in Revelation 16:18.

But yes - to your "point" - these "words" technically do make some small allowance for the mere logical possibility of a time before Adam when there were larger earthquakes.

 

[RV_Wizard]

Just because the reference was in relation to the beginning of man's existence does NOT mean there was one just before man's existence.  In Genesis 1:10 we read that the earth was fully formed and it was good.  Earthquakes don't happen on good creations.  Earthquakes happen on cursed creations.  The problem with your claim is that God Himself said that He created the heavens, the earth and all living things in six days.  That doesn't allow for long ages.  That doesn't allow for an earth that became a barren wasteland because God messed up the early design.  Everything was perfect until Adam sinned.  Eve was deceived by the devil.  Adam sinned willingly.  God is perfect and His creation was perfect until man disobeyed the only rule set before him.

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Just because the reference was in relation to the beginning of man's existence does NOT mean there was one just before man's existence.

I didn't say it 'means it'.  The statement shows a very real possibility of an earthquake before man arrived.  Otherwise, why would John mention man at all?  I mean, if Genesis 1 is only about original creation, with man arriving on day 6, why not jut say since the creation of the world?  That would make more sense, since we have a narrative of 6 days.  Without any earthquake.  So there is no need to mention man if man is only 6 days older than the earth.

Mentioning man certainly leaves open the issue of what happened before man arrived, and that would obviously be further back than just 6 days.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  In Genesis 1:10 we read that the earth was fully formed and it was good.  Earthquakes don't happen on good creations.

Exactly!  So the mention of man shows there is a history of earth way before man, not just 6 brief days.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Earthquakes happen on cursed creations.

An ice pack can certainly be considered a curse.  And we know there was one.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  The problem with your claim is that God Himself said that He created the heavens, the earth and all living things in six days(.

That is incorrect.  Ex 20:11 says God made (asah-made from existing materials) the earth in 6 days.  You have to recognize what the Hebrew words really mean, not just some English translations.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  That doesn't allow for long ages.  That doesn't allow for an earth that became a barren wasteland because God messed up the early design.

The problem you can't answer is that Moses used "tohu wabohu" (formless and void) to describe the state of the earth at the beginning of His work.  Yet, both Jeremiah (4:23) and Isa (34:11) used "tohu wabohu" to describe the state of the land after total destruction.  Why would the 2 Hebrew words fit in the context of creation AND total desctruction?  They wouldn't.  What Moses wrote means the same thing as what both Jeremiah and Isaiah wrote.  You can't get around it.

Further, the traditional translation (TT) of Gen 1:2 is in direct contradiction with Isa 45:18

TT - God created (bara) the earth "tohu".

Isa 45:18 God DID NOT create (bara) the earth "tohu".

So, which verse are you going to believe?  They say the OPPOSITE.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Everything was perfect until Adam sinned.  Eve was deceived by the devil.  Adam sinned willingly.  God is perfect and His creation was perfect until man disobeyed the only rule set before him.

God's original creation (v.1) was perfect.  And God's restoration was perfect.  That Eve was deceived by the devil is irrelevant to when God created earth.

You've got to deal with the meaning of "tohu wabohu" in 3 verses, because they mean the SAME THING in all 3 verses.

You can't have 2 words describe total destruction of the land in 2 verses yet refer to original creation in the other verse.  That is not reasonable or logical.

[BeyondET]

Genesis 1; 1,2,5,.. 2 Peter 3; 6,5,7,8,..

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

6 through which the world of that time perished in the flood.

2 Now the earth was uninhabitable and wasteland, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

5 But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

7 And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Edited December 30, 2023 by BeyondET

[RdJ]

Satan must have fallen before Adam and Eve were created.

 

Job 38:7

Or who laid its cornerstone,
 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Genesis 2:8‭-‬9‭, ‬16‭-‬17 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/gen.2.8-17.NKJV

 

Before Eve is even created Adam gets told to not eat from the tree of good and evil that was already there. There would be no knowledge of evil by experience when satan hadn't fallen yet.

 

 

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Renskedejonge said:

Satan must have fallen before Adam and Eve were created.

That makes sense since he appears in the Garden to tempt the woman.  

2 hours ago, Renskedejonge said:

Job 38:7

Or who laid its cornerstone,
 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Genesis 2:8‭-‬9‭, ‬16‭-‬17 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/gen.2.8-17.NKJV

Before Eve is even created Adam gets told to not eat from the tree of good and evil that was already there. There would be no knowledge of evil by experience when satan hadn't fallen yet.

Thanks.

[NConly]

Eph 3

I have read a lot of post in this thread maybe not all. Not sure if this has been posted.

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

2 Pet 3

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 ""But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store,"" reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I know there is a thread about the whole world being wasteland before the beginning of man  but v 7 seems to say different.imo