Rev 16:18 suggests the earth is much older than Adam/Eve

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

The six days is many verses.

I've never argued about the 6 days.  God spent 6 days restoring the earth.  Aren't you aware that there are NO verses that say that God created (bara) the earth in 6 days?

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Harping on a part of one verse is not sound.

No, I'm emphasizing the literal Hebrew, which gives us all the detail that God allowed us to read about.  Enough to understand Genesis 1 is about restoration.  And that is very sound; to focus on the literal Hebrew, rather than an English translation.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Especially when what is being described was never seen by any man.

This is irrelevant.  Man wasn't around when God created the earth (v.1) or restored the  earth (v.2).

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

So whatever it was like, the context is that is was one of six days. Lots was left to do.

God is more than capable of creating the entire universe and earth instantly.  But for no good reason you assume He created the earth over 6 days.  

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Yes you did when talking about a world with possibly angels that supposedly preexisted the six day creation.

Do you deny that angels have free access to all of the universe.  Go ahead and give your opinion.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

You can't give any details because it is wholly made up.

What a reckless statement.  I can't because the Bible didn't.  
Are you that oblivious to the obvious?

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

So this same universe (before stars and sun was created) according to you was here and occupied by unknown life forms.

There you go again making stuff up.  I never mentioned anything about unknown life forms.  That comes only from your own fevered brow, or what's behind it.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Then things sort of got out of control, and they destroyed God's world!? No mention of this anywhere in the bible, strange, that.

You've made it very clear that you have no use for the literal Hebrew.  That is certainly very sad.  It is what Moses wrote.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Guess I better interpret for you

Isaiah 45:18

For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; (both in day four when the stars and sun were created and in day one when heaven itself was created) God himself that formed the earth and made it; (God not only made but also formed the earth in the six days of creation) he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited:(the idea of the world was that life and man would be created here and that did not happen on day one we are told) I am the Lord ; and there is none else.

Except you totally failed to properly translate "tohu".  But I expected nothing less.

Let's see how various translations render the "tohu".

New Living Translation
For the LORD is God, and he created the heavens and earth and put everything in place. He made the world to be lived in, not to be a place of empty chaos. “I am the LORD,” he says, “and there is no other.

New American Standard Bible
For this is what the LORD says, He who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it as a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited): “I am the LORD, and there is no one else.

NASB 1995
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), “I am the LORD, and there is none else.

NASB 1977 
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, But formed it to be inhabited), “I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Amplified Bible
For the LORD, who created the heavens (He is God, who formed the earth and made it; He established it and did not create it to be a wasteland, but formed it to be inhabited) says this, “I am the LORD, and there is no one else.

Christian Standard Bible
For this is what the LORD says — the Creator of the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, the one who established it (he did not create it to be a wasteland, but formed it to be inhabited) — he says, “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

American Standard Version
For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else.

Contemporary English Version
The LORD alone is God! He created the heavens and made a world where people can live, instead of creating an empty desert (wasteland). The LORD alone is God; there are no others. 

English Revised Version
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; he is God; that formed the earth and made it; he established it, he created it not a waste, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Good News Translation
The LORD created the heavens--he is the one who is God! He formed and made the earth--he made it firm and lasting. He did not make it a desolate waste, but a place for people to live. It is he who says, "I am the LORD, and there is no other god. 

International Standard Version
For this is what the LORD says, who created the heavens— he is God, and the one who formed the earth and made it, and he is the one who established it; he didn't create it for chaos, but formed it to be inhabited— "I am the LORD and there is no other.

JPS Tanakh 1917
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens, He is God; That formed the earth and made it, He established it, He created it not a waste, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD, and there is none else.

New American Bible
For thus says the LORD, The creator of the heavens, who is God, The designer and maker of the earth who established it, Not as an empty waste did he create it, but designing it to be lived in: I am the LORD, and there is no other. 

NET Bible
For this is what the LORD says, the one who created the sky--he is the true God, the one who formed the earth and made it; he established it, he did not create it without order, he formed it to be inhabited--"I am the LORD, I have no peer. 
New Revised Standard Version
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it a chaos, he formed it to be inhabited!): I am the LORD, and there is no other.
New Heart English Bible
For thus says the LORD who created the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, who established it and did not create it a waste, who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
World English Bible
For Yahweh who created the heavens, the God who formed the earth and made it, who established it and didn’t create it a waste, who formed it to be inhabited says: “I am Yahweh. There is no other. 

So, out of 32 English translations, here we see 17 (nearly half) that are true to the word "tohu" AND, contradict the common translation of Gen 1:2 which says God created the earrth tohu, and which you agree.

So, know that there are 17 translations that directly contradict your opinion and what the KJV says.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Nothing is imagined except your strange made up destruction of the world and universe on the first day of creation.

Go ahead and keep dishonoring the literal Hebrew of Gen 1:2.  I just gave you 17 translations that directly contradict the lousy English translation, the one you grip tightly to.  For no objective reason.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

On that day the world was in a dark place! Now most of us have light

Given your preference of a translation of Gen 1:2 that is directly contradicted by nearly half of all the English translations on biblehub.com, I'd say you are in a dark place.  A very dark place.

I keep giving you facts, and you keep rejecting them.

[dad2]

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There is no contradiction between the literal Hebrew of 1:2 with anything in the Bible.

Of course not.

Hebrews 1:2

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In fact not only does it not contradict anything, but I don't see how it relates to your alternate past universe theory?

As for the other verse you cited, again, noting either contradictory or supporting your redone rather than created planet story.

Isaiah 45:18

For the Lord is God, and he created the heavens and earth and put everything in place. He made the world to be lived in, not to be a place of empty chaos. "I am the Lord ," he says, "and there is no other.

Why not face it you are opposing the bible with the invented addition of a mystery gap that has no explanation or rhyme or reason.

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And that is exactly my point!  The reason the earth was not useful for sustaining man is because, according to the literal Hebrew, had become an uninhabitable wasteland.

It was created that way. It also was made to be a paradise later in the week. Let's face it you do not believe in the days of creation either. Be honest.

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So, like the disciples restoring their nets to functional use, so God restored a wrecked earth for man's use.

In the beginning God created the heaven and earth, not restored it.

Explain this verse in your paradigm  

Matthew 24:21

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

What does that refer to, if not the beginning of the world? Are you claiming then your fantasy former world had trouble LESS than the Tribulation? Be clear.

 

Also curious about this verse and how you fit it into your scheme.

Psalms 90:2

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Was that before your 'original creation' (or whatever you call it)?

Edited March 2 by dad2

[dad2]

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I've never argued about the 6 days.  God spent 6 days restoring the earth.  Aren't you aware that there are NO verses that say that God created (bara) the earth in 6 days?

So a separate creation? Man was created as were many things in the days of creation? Was man 'restored'? Explain.

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I've never argued about the 6 days.  God spent 6 days restoring the earth.  Aren't you aware that there are NO verses that say that God created (bara) the earth in 6 days?

One minute you say man was not around in the 'restoration' and another minute you say all six days were the restoration? Not cohesive.

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God is more than capable of creating the entire universe and earth instantly.  But for no good reason you assume He created the earth over 6 days.  

The chapter is full or reasons actually. The stars were not here or sun on day one. So what 'universe' are you talking about?

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Do you deny that angels have free access to all of the universe.  Go ahead and give your opinion.

How do angels getting around relate to your imagined former earth?

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Do you deny that angels have free access to all of the universe.  Go ahead and give your opinion.

You base all of creation and the ages involved etc upon the mystery former world you claim was destroyed. Now you claim we have no details about it. Hilarious. If you have no details about day one of the six day creation, how is it that you claim only certain words could describe it? I pointed out that those same words have many possible meanings, many of which do apply to a newly created world that was not yet formed to be suited to life.

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 I never mentioned anything about unknown life forms.  

Try to flesh out your fairy tale. Are you claiming the supposed first world had NO life forms? So what was 'destroyed' about it? Some demon just snuck in a wiped out the planet with no life for no apparent reason and God allowed it? Or..? It is your story, you provide the details.

[dad2]

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Go ahead and keep dishonoring the literal Hebrew of Gen 1:2.  I just gave you 17 translations that directly contradict the lousy English translation, the one you grip tightly to.  For no objective reason.

I provided the actual definitions of the word and there are many possible uses. You want to grasp at uses that do not fit with the creation of God that was finished after day 6. Your desperation to stuff imaginary ages into creation is noted.

[RV_Wizard]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

So, like the disciples restoring their nets to functional use, so God restored a wrecked earth for man's use.

GAP THEORY

Genesis 1:1–2 states, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.” The gap theory is the view that God created a fully functional earth with all animals, including the dinosaurs and other creatures we know only from the fossil record. Then, the theory goes, something happened to destroy the earth completely—most likely the fall of Satan to earth—so that the planet became without form and void. At this point, God started all over again, recreating the earth in its paradise form as further described in Genesis. The gap theory, which is distinct from theistic evolution and the day-age theory, is also called old-earth creationism, gap creationism, and the ruin-reconstruction theory....

However, many of those who hold to the gap theory do so in order to reconcile old-earth, evolutionary theories with the book of Genesis. But it seems to be a strained reconciliation. The plain reading of Genesis 1 does not at all intimate a length of time between the first two verses. Genesis 1:1 tells us that God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:2 informs us that, when He first created the earth, it was formless, empty, and dark; it was unfinished and uninhabited. The rest of Genesis 1 relates how God completed the formless, empty, and dark earth by filling it with life, beauty, and goodness.   source

History

One of the most highly esteemed authorities of all was the 20th century Bible Commentator C. I. Scofield (1823-1921). He was the first scholar to fill his annotated study Bible with a running commentary on every page and he became known as the first serious advocate for what was called the “gap theory”.

Bible commentator C. I. Scofield openly admitted his Reference Bible was trying to fit the Genesis creation account into modern evolutionary theory.

“Relegate [consign] fossils to the primitive creation, and no conflict of science with the Genesis cosmogony remains.” (C. I. Scofield, Scofield Reference Bible, 1945, p4.)   source

Inescapable fact

Gap theory or Ruin/Reconstruction did not exist until the early 1800's.  It was created as a way to accept the old earth claims of evolution proponents.  It is not a revelation of an ancient truth.  It's just another false doctrine originated by those with indifference to the Scriptures who wanted to make old earth claims fit with accepted church doctrine.

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

I said:

There is no contradiction between the literal Hebrew of 1:2 with anything in the Bible.

Of course not.

Hebrews 1:2

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

I guess this is about as low as it gets.  When I said "the literal Hebrew of  1:2 every alert follower of this thread knows I was referring to Gen 1:2.  So you get cute and twist my words as if I were referring to Heb 1:2, which has NEVER come into the discussion.  That's pretty low.  But since you have no evidence at all for your views, you have to twist and deceive.

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

In fact not only does it not contradict anything, but I don't see how it relates to your alternate past universe theory?

You know very well I was referring to the ususal translation of Gen 1:2 contradicting with Isa 45:18.  

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

As for the other verse you cited, again, noting either contradictory or supporting your redone rather than created planet story.

Isaiah 45:18

For the Lord is God, and he created the heavens and earth and put everything in place. He made the world to be lived in, not to be a place of empty chaos. "I am the Lord ," he says, "and there is no other.

Why not face it you are opposing the bible with the invented addition of a mystery gap that has no explanation or rhyme or reason.

Why won't you FACE the FACT that I gave you plenty of translations of Isa 45:18 that treat "tohu" properly, as "waste", "wasteland", "chaos" etc..  In fact, 19 translations out of 32.  That's a lot more than half of all the translations on biblehub.com.

FACT

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

It was created that way.

That is absurd.  God is NOT a sloppy Creator.  What He creates is perfect, because He is perfect.  Maybe you weren't aware of that FACT.  You seem to be missing quite a lot of FACTS.

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

It also was made to be a paradise later in the week. Let's face it you do not believe in the days of creation either. Be honest.

Of course I don't believe that creation took 6 days.  And I'm ALWAYS honest, unlike yourself, who has taken to twisting my posts to try to deflect from your own unsubstantiated views.  I do believe that God took 6 days to restore the planet, of which there is plenty of evidence, all of it ignored or rejected by you.

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

In the beginning God created the heaven and earth, not restored it.

I agree.  Gen 1:1

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

Explain this verse in your paradigm  

Matthew 24:21

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

What does that refer to, if not the beginning of the world? Are you claiming then your fantasy former world had trouble LESS than the Tribulation? Be clear.

{It easily refers to the time when Adam was placed on the earth.  Why would there be need for a reference to any time before was on earth?  Totally not relevant to the timeline of humanity.}  Unfortunately, some times your post won't format correctly.

Also curious about this verse and how you fit it into your scheme.

Psalms 90:2

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Was that before your 'original creation' (or whatever you call it)?

Please don't be so moronic.  I call what God did in Gen 1:1 original creation, which is what it is.  Your sarcasm also reveals the condition of your heart.  You've taken this discussion way too emotional and personal.  

We're talking about what the Bible means by what it says, and you're all twisted about the shorts here.  I've given FACTS and you've given anything else, including twisting, deception, and sarcasm.  Not very helpful if you want to be convincing.

As to your question about Psa 90:2, it is obviously referring to God's eternality; that He has existed eternally, which is way before He "ever hadst formed the earth and the world".  Obviously.  

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

So a separate creation?

It seems there is no point in trying to explain anything to you, since you seem unable to understand something being created, then destroyed, and then being restored.

Coming up with "a separate creation" doesn't demonstrate much understanding.  I've never said or suggested such silliness.  Only one creation, which became a mess, and the restored.  So simple a grade school child would be able to understand the concept.

Why can't you understand?  

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

Man was created as were many things in the days of creation? Was man 'restored'? Explain.

What are you talking about?  Who asked, "was man restored".  It sure wasn't me.

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

One minute you say man was not around in the 'restoration' and another minute you say all six days were the restoration? Not cohesive.

Don't you remember WHEN man was created?  AFTER all the restoration was done.  At the end of day 6.  

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

The chapter is full or reasons actually. The stars were not here or sun on day one. So what 'universe' are you talking about?

Since you filter everything through the lens of "there was only original creation" in Genesis 1, you aren't understanding anything, and you seem rather incapable of it.

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

How do angels getting around relate to your imagined former earth?

I don't need your snarky opinions about my views.  They aren't "imagined", but rather based on the FACTS of the literal Hebrew, which you scoff at and reject.

I reject the stupid and poor translation of Gen 1:2 when the evidence for what the words mean elsewhere in the OT are overwhelming.

Your question is rather childish since the Bible doesn't give such details about how angels do anything.  

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

You base all of creation and the ages involved etc upon the mystery former world you claim was destroyed.

That you keep calling original creation as a "former world" only showcases your total inability to comprehend.  There is one creation of the "heavens and earth".  Got it?  Gen 1:1 is that creation.

However, you reject what the literal Hebrew actually says in v.2, that the earth became a mess (uninhabitable wasteland).  I proved that more than half of all the translations on biblehub.com translate the EXACT SAME FORM of the verb in Gen 1:2 elsewhere in the OT as "become/became".  That's 17 out of 32.  So YES, the verb in Gen 1:2 IS translated as "became/become" more than half of the time elsewhere in the OT.

Can you comprehend that FACT?

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

Now you claim we have no details about it.

I've always noted the obvious.  Where have you been?

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

If you have no details about day one of the six day creation, how is it that you claim only certain words could describe it?

Again, you keep twisting things.  There is no 56 day creation.  That is only an opinion from a very poor translation.  I gave you 5 that properly translate "tohu", proving that it cannot be referring to original creation .  

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

Try to flesh out your fairy tale.

I've given you FACTS that you keep rejecting.

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

Are you claiming the supposed first world had NO life forms?

Again, you twist everything, demonstrating a lot of dishonesty.  There is only ONE world, created perfect, messed up, and then destroyed.  

That you can't or won't understand that is your own problem.

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

So what was 'destroyed' about it? Some demon just snuck in a wiped out the planet with no life for no apparent reason and God allowed it? Or..? It is your story, you provide the details.

Again, you are asking what God didn't provide.  Why do you keep doing that?

Are you unable to realize that God doesn't have to bow to your silly demands and questions?  He gave enough information to know that the only world He created got destroyed, and He restored it.  Very simple.

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

I provided the actual definitions of the word and there are many possible uses.

You have provided deception, twisting, sarcasm, etc, all because you have defense against the FACTS.  

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

You want to grasp at uses that do not fit with the creation of God that was finished after day 6. Your desperation to stuff imaginary ages into creation is noted.

The problem is your refusal to realize that Gen 1:2 is about what happened after creation of the world.  That's where you go completely off the rails.

There is no use trying to explain anything to you since you reject FACTS.

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

GAP THEORY

Again, I repeat, I haven't given any theory at all.  So you just keep wasting time.  I have given you the FACTS of the literal Hebrew, which you reject.

You're really not interested in FACTS, because they refute your flawed understanding of Genesis 1.  

If I had suggested what might have happened after 1:1 creation and before v.2, that would be a theory.