Rev 16:18 suggests the earth is much older than Adam/Eve

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, dad2 said:

Because man was only on earth since day 6. So if there was some shaking involved in separating the waters from land or whatever before that, it doesn't matter. The point is that the shaking in the end will be the greatest since man existed on earth. That includes the time when the continents separated quickly when there was likely a lot of shaking as well. It includes all the earthquakes in history as well as the ones in the tribulation up to that time. This has zero do do with some imaginary ages before day 6.

There are no "imaginary ages" before Adam was created.  The key to understanding Gen 1:2 is found in how "tohu wabuho" is used and translated elsewhere in the OT.

The 2 Hebrew words occur together only two more times.

In Jer 4:23 it is used to describe the total destruction of the land by a 'besieging army' that 'destroys nations'.  It's all in the text. 

In Isa 34:11 it is used to describe the total destruction of the land by God Himself.  

The word "tohu", very poorly translated as "formless" in Gen 1:2 is translated thus elsewhere:

tohu -

 

Gen 1:2 - formless (tohu)

1 Sam 12:21 - futile things NASB ISB, useless NIV, worthless Christian Standard Bible

Job 26:7 - desolation literal standard version, waste place Aramaic Bible in Plan English

Isa 34:11 -  chaos NIV Berean Standard Bible, confusion ESV KJV ASV, desolation NASB,

Isa 45:18 - waste place NASB Christian Standard Bible ASV ERV JPS Tanakh, chaos ISV NRSV

Isa 45:19 - wasteland NASB Berean Standard Bible Christian Standard Bible, chaos ISV

Isa 59:4 - confusion (empty words) NASB Legacy Standard Bible, worthless words Christian Standard Bible

Jer 4:23 - formless ISV, waste ASV ERV JPS Tank NAB NET NRSV New Heart English Bible World English Bible Youngs Literal Translation, chaos Aramaic Bible in Plain English

Given how "tohu" and "tohu wabohu" is used elsewhere, can you explain HOW these words that describe waste, confusion, chaos, etc can be used for original creation of the earth?

btw, the word "formless" does not exist in nature.  Every object HAS form.  It can only be used in a comparison, like a formless woman.  If she doesn't have the usual curves, she is said to be formless.  However, such a figure is also described as a "bean pole" or "broom", both of which HAVE form.

Also, the exact form of the verb 'hayah' in v.2 (was) is frequently translated as either "became" or "become" elsewhere in the OT.

And there are examples of where "was" and "became" are interchangeable.

For example, "Mary was the wife of Joseph" can also be said as "Mary became the wife of Joseph" because in this case, all wives become a wife at marriage.  So you can use either word.

Therefore, Gen 1:2 says the earth became a wasteland, based on the words are used elsewhere.  

The earth never was formless.  Ever.

Edited February 26 by FreeGrace

[dad2]

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There are no "imaginary ages" before Adam was created.

I agree. None at all.

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The word "tohu", very poorly translated as "formless" in Gen 1:2 is translated thus elsewhere:

Whatever it was like in the early stage of being created doesn't matter. I am sure formless is fine. None says formless must exist in nature today.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

Whatever it was like in the early stage of being created doesn't matter.

What makes you think God created the universe in stages?  Psa 33:6 and 9 says that God spoke everything into existence.  Why would He do it in stages when He is fully able to create a fully functional universe by speaking it into existence?

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

I am sure formless is fine.

Really?  There is no such thing.  The translators were just didn't have biblehub.com around to see how the words in v.2 were translated elsewhere.  

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

None says formless must exist in nature today.

Who says formless must exist ever?  It's a bogus word when dealing with creation of the universe and earth.  Everything has form.  

I explained how the word is used.  It has nothing to do with original creation.

Why are you so dead set against God creating a perfect earth but it became a wasteland?  That is what v.2 actually says.

I showed how "tohu" is used in other verses.  Why are you so resistant to facts?

Do you feel threatened by an earth that is much much older than Adam?

If so, why?

[dad2]

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What makes you think God created the universe in stages?  Psa 33:6 and 9 says that God spoke everything into existence.  Why would He do it in stages when He is fully able to create a fully functional universe by speaking it into existence?

Because He gave us the stages and times involved. The stars came several days after the world was made.

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Really?  There is no such thing.  The translators were just didn't have biblehub.com around to see how the words in v.2 were translated elsewhere.  

Who says formless must exist ever?  It's a bogus word when dealing with creation of the universe and earth.  Everything has form.  

Strong's
From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), that is, desert; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain: - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

So the earth was empty or desolate etc. That is no excuse to insert billions of made up years.

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Why are you so dead set against God creating a perfect earth but it became a wasteland?  That is what v.2 actually says.

No it was more like a wasteland at first then He added stuff

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Because He gave us the stages and times involved. The stars came several days after the world was made.

That's not a developmental stage, as you have insinuated.  The earth was spoken into existence as a round planet.  Tohu wabohu means that the earth became a wasteland, and God didn't give us any details.  Then, during the restoration that took 6 days, God redecorated the planet.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Strong's
From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), that is, desert; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain: - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

So the earth was empty or desolate etc. That is no excuse to insert billions of made up years.

No it was more like a wasteland at first then He added stuff 

Go ahead an ignore Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11 then.  The text proves that tohu wabohu describes a land that was totally destroyed.  (uninhabitable wasteland)

Trying to force a description of a destroyed land in 2 texts into original creation is silly.

But, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.

[dad2]

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That's not a developmental stage, as you have insinuated.

Creation was not development. It was done in stages though. We call that days. Having day one with the world as desolate or without form does not mean it was not round! Nothing in Jer suggests otherwise. Let's be honest, the reason most claim long ages is to try and agree with another religion (science)

[FreeGrace]

14 hours ago, dad2 said:

Creation was not development.

Now you are contradicting yourself.  Before, you said God created the universe in stages.  How is that not development?

Psa 33:6 and 9 are clear;  God spoke everything into existence.  No development, no stages, NO tohu wabu.  

Which brings up another point.  You believe Gen 1:1,2 says "God created the earth and the earth was "tohu".

However, Isa 45:18 says "God DID NOT create the earth "tohu".

So, the way you understand Ten 1:2 creates a contradiction with Isa 45:18.  So you have to decide which verse to ignore or reject.

I know from comparing the Hebrews in Gen 1:2 with how they are translated and used elsewhere that v.2 says "but the earth became a wasteland", and there is NO contradiction with Isa 45:18.

14 hours ago, dad2 said:

It was done in stages though. We call that days.

A stage is development nonetheless.  Even the NT supports Gen 1 being a restoration.

Heb 11:3 - By faith we understand that the worlds have been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen hath not been made out of things which appear.

The English word "framed" is 'katartizo' in the Greek.  This same word is found in Mark 1:19 - And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, who were in their boat mending the nets.

iow, to "mend" nets is the same as "repairing" or "restoring".  Same word in Heb 11:3.

In addition, the Greek word 'katartizo' is actually translated as "restore" in 2 verses:  

Gal 6:1 - Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.

1 Peter 5:10 - And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

I invite you to check biblehub.com to confirm that 'katartizo' is the Greek word in both verses.

14 hours ago, dad2 said:

Having day one with the world as desolate or without form does not mean it was not round!to

Irrelevant.  I've give you a mountain of evidence that the earth BECAME something that it wasn't created as.  You have only the English translations to go by.  

And HOW "tohu wabohu" is used in the 2 other verses where the 2 words occur clearly  indicate the words describe TOTAL DESTRUCTION, which means there is NO WAY those 2 words fit original creation.

14 hours ago, dad2 said:

Nothing in Jer suggests otherwise.

OK, so you didn't actually read the the passage.  So I'll help you out here.

v.5 “Announce in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say:  ‘Sound the trumpet throughout the land!’  Cry aloud and say:  ‘Gather together!  Let us flee to the fortified cities!’
v.6 Raise the signal to go to Zion!  Flee for safety without delay!  For I am bringing disaster from the north, even terrible destruction.”   Do you see the picture?

v.7  A lion has come out of his lair; a destroyer of nations has set out.  He has left his place to lay waste (TOHU) your land.  Your towns will lie in ruins without inhabitant (WABOHU).

v.16 Tell this to the nations, proclaim concerning Jerusalem:  ‘A besieging army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah.

v.20 Disaster follows disaster; the whole land lies in ruins.  In an instant my tents are destroyed, my shelter in a moment.

v.23 I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; (tohu wabohu) and at the heavens, and their light was gone.

v.23 is a description of the aftermath of the "besieging army" (v.16) that is a "destroyer of nations" (v.7) did to the land.  

So please don't assign "tohu wab0hu" to original creation.  It is clear from the text that a besieging army that destroys nations left the land an inhabitable wasteland (tohu wabohu).  Without any doubt.

14 hours ago, dad2 said:

Let's be honest, the reason most claim long ages is to try and agree with another religion (science)

Who cares about what the "most" claim?  Why do you even bring them up?  I've focused solely on what Scripture SAYS.  

Are you saying all science is just another "religion"?  Do you consider your primary care physician to be just a witch doctor?  Don't be ridiculous.  If the earth is really only about 6-10,000 years old, the highly sensitive equipment that science has developed would surely see it.  

But I'm not interested in science.  I don't care what they measure.  I DO care about what the Bible ACTUALLY says, not some English translation by people who obviously didn't compare the Hebrew words in Gen 1:2 with how they were translated elsewhere.

Even the Septuigant supports my understanding of v.2.  The Septuigant (LXX) was translated from Hebrew to Koine Greek (of the NT) around 300 BC.  This is how v.2 was translated:

But, the earth was chaos...

Do you think those scholars who know both Hebrew and Greek thought God created the earth in chaos?  They DID understand what "tohu" means.

And as I've shown previously, the word "was" can be synonymous with "became".

Edited February 27 by FreeGrace

[dad2]

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Now you are contradicting yourself.  Before, you said God created the universe in stages.  How is that not development?

Not at all, I made it clear the days given in Genesis were the stages. Waters separated from land etc.

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Psa 33:6 and 9 are clear;  God spoke everything into existence.  No development, no stages, NO tohu wabu.  

Which brings up another point.  You believe Gen 1:1,2 says "God created the earth and the earth was "tohu".

However, Isa 45:18 says "God DID NOT create the earth "tohu".

Isaiah 45:18

For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord ; and there is none else.

 

He both made the earth and formed it the way it is. No imaginary ages needed.

 

 

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I know from comparing the Hebrews in Gen 1:2 with how they are translated and used elsewhere that v.2 says "but the earth became a wasteland", and there is NO contradiction with Isa 45:18.

The idea in Gen is that at first the earth was not completed in the way He was planning yet. The waters had to be separated from land, animals and birds and fish added, etc etc. No contradiction at all

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A stage is development nonetheless.  Even the NT supports Gen 1 being a restoration.

The days of creation week are actually not nonsense at all.

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Heb 11:3 - By faith we understand that the worlds have been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen hath not been made out of things which appear.

The English word "framed" is 'katartizo' in the Greek.  This same word is found in Mark 1:19 - And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, who were in their boat mending the nets.

iow, to "mend" nets is the same as "repairing" or "restoring".  Same word in Heb 11:3.

In addition, the Greek word 'katartizo' is actually translated as "restore" in 2 verses:  

Gal 6:1 - Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.

1 Peter 5:10 - And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

I invite you to check biblehub.com to confirm that 'katartizo' is the Greek word in both verses.

The wold and heavens were created. God then did lots of things to make them better and suited to man. It did not all happen instantly.

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Irrelevant.  I've give you a mountain of evidence that the earth BECAME something that it wasn't created as.  You have only the English translations to go by.  

Nothing became anything. God created and then changed and worked on it.

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And HOW "tohu wabohu" is used in the 2 other verses where the 2 words occur clearly  indicate the words describe TOTAL DESTRUCTION, which means there is NO WAY those 2 words fit original creation.

Use of words in different situations varies. If we described the early earth before waters were separated from the land, that would seem like total destruction compared with how He changed it.

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So please don't assign "tohu wab0hu" to original creation.

You are looking at it backwards! If God made the planet like it was on day one of creation week, all life would end and continents would not exist etc etc. It would be total destruction. He made it that way before we got here and prepared it for us. So yes it fits like a glove

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, dad2 said:

Not at all, I made it clear the days given in Genesis were the stages. Waters separated from land etc.

What you "made clear" is just your opinion.  God doesn't create in stages.  He SPOKE the universe into existence.  Psa 33:6, 9

4 hours ago, dad2 said:

Isaiah 45:18

For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord ; and there is none else.

I'm unable to properly format your post, so my reply is in red.  I put in red the key phrase in v.18, "he created it NOT "tohu".  The translation is "in vain", but the word is "tohu".  So you believe Gen 1:2 means God created the earth tohu yet Isa 45:18 says "he created it (earth) NOT tohu".  That is a contradiction.

 

He both made the earth and formed it the way it is. No imaginary ages needed.

There are no imaginary ages.  There is simply an unknown period of time between original creation and when God restored the earth in 6 days.

 

The idea in Gen is that at first the earth was not completed in the way He was planning yet.

No, that is NOT the "idea" in Genesis 1.  That's just a spin to avoid acknowledging that something occurred that wrecked the earth.

 

The waters had to be separated from land, animals and birds and fish added, etc etc. No contradiction at all 

If you don't see a contradiction between "God created the earth tohu" and "God did not create the earth tohu", you just aren't looking.

The days of creation week are actually not nonsense at all.

They are when v.2 clearly says "but the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland".

4 hours ago, dad2 said:

The wold and heavens were created. God then did lots of things to make them better and suited to man. It did not all happen instantly.

No, He restored earth so man could live on it.

4 hours ago, dad2 said:

Nothing became anything. God created and then changed and worked on it.

You mean He didn't like what He originally created and fiddled with it?

4 hours ago, dad2 said:

Use of words in different situations varies.

Wrong. I shared how 5 English translations rendered "tohu" in Gen 1:2 which included "chaos", "waste", etc.  A word doesn't magically mean something totally different in different verses.  That's just more spin. 

4 hours ago, dad2 said:

If we described the early earth before waters were separated from the land, that would seem like total destruction compared with how He changed it.

So you think God wasn't able to speak the total earth into existence, but had to fiddle with it after His initial attempt??

4 hours ago, dad2 said:

You are looking at it backwards! If God made the planet like it was on day one of creation week, all life would end and continents would not exist etc etc. It would be total destruction. He made it that way before we got here and prepared it for us. So yes it fits like a glove

You're just keeping your eyes shut tight.  You don't want to know what the Hebrew words really mean, as shown elsewhere in the OT.  But that's how one understands what words mean, by how they are used.

I've given you all the facts, and you are simply ignoring them.

You have provided nothing more than your opinion.  

Edited February 27 by FreeGrace

[dad2]

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What you "made clear" is just your opinion.  God doesn't create in stages.  He SPOKE the universe into existence.  Psa 33:6, 9

Yes and after that on each creation day He did more. Create man for example. We were formed from the ground, not spoke into being. Etc

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They are when v.2 clearly says "but the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland".

Verse 2 actually says this.

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Your rendition is heavily opinionated and skewed. God was right here on a created planet continuing to make it better and ready for life.

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Wrong. I shared how 5 English translations rendered "tohu" in Gen 1:2 which included "chaos", "waste", etc.  A word doesn't magically mean something totally different in different verses.  That's just more spin. 

It was how the world was before God made the dry land appear etc. No spooky anti- rest of the bible imaginary billions of inserted years involved.