Rev 16:18 suggests the earth is much older than Adam/Eve

[RV_Wizard]

9 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

How come you  haven't answered my question about who this passage is really describing?  Yes, King of Tyre is mentioned at the beginning, but he was NEVER "in Eden the garden of God".  So who does that verse refer to?

Man.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

The inheritance of Adam is a sinful, rebellious nature

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said: 

How come you  haven't answered my question about who this passage is really describing?  Yes, King of Tyre is mentioned at the beginning, but he was NEVER "in Eden the garden of God".  So who does that verse refer to?

Man.

Well,  that's much of your comprehension problem.  v.13 is clearly about satan, who "was created perfect".  No human after Adam was and the King of Tyre was a very evil man.  So your answer of "man" cannot be true.  It sure wasn't Adam, either.

Ezek 28:1-10 is a lament against the man, King of Tyre.  However, things change from v.11ff.  

v.11,12 - The word of the LORD came to me: “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: “‘You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

If Adam was created perfect, he wouldn't have sinned.  But since he did choose to sin, he was vulnerable to bad choices.  Perfection is above all that.

v.13 locates this "king of Tyre" in Eden, the garden of God.  Yes, that's where Adam was created; however, consider the NEXT VERSE:

v.14 - You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you.  You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.

Please explain how ANY of this could apply to ANY human.  This is a direct description of satan, the angel with the highest rank in heaven.  Just check what scholars say.

13 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

The inheritance of Adam is a sinful, rebellious nature

v.14 totally refutes your ideas.  Since you disagree, then explain HOW v.14 can apply to ANY human being.  Which human was annointed as a "guardian cherub", or has been "on the holy mount of God", or who "walked among the fiery stones", a reference to fellow angels.

Good luck with that.

There's NO WAY to apply v.14 to any human, not even Adam.

[BeyondET]

On 2/9/2024 at 9:32 AM, FreeGrace said:

Well,  that's much of your comprehension problem.  v.13 is clearly about satan, who "was created perfect".  No human after Adam was and the King of Tyre was a very evil man.  So your answer of "man" cannot be true.  It sure wasn't Adam, either.

Ezek 28:1-10 is a lament against the man, King of Tyre.  However, things change from v.11ff.  

v.11,12 - The word of the LORD came to me: “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: “‘You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

If Adam was created perfect, he wouldn't have sinned.  But since he did choose to sin, he was vulnerable to bad choices.  Perfection is above all that.

v.13 locates this "king of Tyre" in Eden, the garden of God.  Yes, that's where Adam was created; however, consider the NEXT VERSE:

v.14 - You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you.  You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.

Please explain how ANY of this could apply to ANY human.  This is a direct description of satan, the angel with the highest rank in heaven.  Just check what scholars say.

v.14 totally refutes your ideas.  Since you disagree, then explain HOW v.14 can apply to ANY human being.  Which human was annointed as a "guardian cherub", or has been "on the holy mount of God", or who "walked among the fiery stones", a reference to fellow angels.

Good luck with that.

There's NO WAY to apply v.14 to any human, not even Adam.

Sounds correct and as well, Full of wisdom would include the knowledge tree, Adam had no knowledge of it when he was created.

Edited February 11 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

14 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Sounds correct and as well, Full of wisdom would include the knowledge tree, Adam had no knowledge of it when he was created.

Sure.  When all angels were created, they were full of wisdom.  Would God create stupid angels?  No.

Edited February 12 by FreeGrace

[BeyondET]

13 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Sure.  When all angels were created, they were full of wisdom.  Would God create stupid angels?  No.

Stupid angels Huh?, I was agreeing with you about it not being about man, but never mind.

[MichaelSnow]

On 2/7/2024 at 8:32 AM, FreeGrace said:

I don't know how long you've been following this thread, but it's all been laid out.  The exact same form of the verb 'hayah' in Gen 1:2 translated as "was" is translated as "became" or "become" in numerous verses throughout the OT.

And, a number of verses that use "was" can easily be seen as also meaning "became".

Ex:  Mary WAS Joseph's wife.  True fact.  But it is also true that Mary BECAME Joseph's wife.  

However, the most important words in Gen 1:2 are "tohu wabohu" poorly translated as "formless and void".  First, every object visible HAS form.  The form may be quite irregular, or even be dynamic, meaning it is in constant change.  Doesn't matter.  Every object HAS form, so "formless" isn't even rational.

Then, the ONLY other verses that contain "tohu wabohu" are in Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.

In both verses, the context is about the land being destroyed, and "tohu wabohu" is the description of the condition of the land after it's destruction.  So those 2 words cannot be a part of original creation.

Here is how "tohu" is translated by various English translations in Gen 1:2 -

Gen 1:2 - formless

1 Sam 12:21 - futile things NASB ISB, useless NIV, worthless Christian Standard Bible

Job 26:7 - desolation literal standard version, waste place Aramaic Bible in Plan English

Isa 34:11 -  chaos NIV Berean Standard Bible, confusion ESV KJV ASV, desolation NASB,

Isa 45:18 - waste place NASB Christian Standard Bible ASV ERV JPS Tanakh, chaos ISV NRSV

Isa 45:19 - wasteland NASB Berean Standard Bible Christian Standard Bible, chaos ISV

Isa 59:4 - confusion (empty words) NASB Legacy Standard Bible, worthless words Christian Standard Bible

Jer 4:23 - formless ISV, waste ASV ERV JPS Tank NAB NET NRSV New Heart English Bible World English Bible Youngs Literal Translation, chaos Aramaic Bible in Plain English

So I'm not making anything up.  

Further, if the standard translation (ST) of Gen 1:1,2 are correct, there is a glaring contradiction with isa 45:18.

ST:  In the beginning God created (bara) the heavens and earth, v.2 and the earth was "tohu".  

But Isa 45:18 says "God did NOT create (bara) the earth "tohu".

So, take your pick as to which verse you want to believe.  But they are clearly in contradiction.

OK, so you believe thtere is an undetermined period of time between v.1 and 2.  But you reject a gap of time.  Do you understand that you have contradicted yourself.

If there IS an "undetermined period of time" between verses, THAT means there is a GAP of time.

Since you mentioned "theory", I agree.  We have no information from the Bible as to what may have occurred during that indeterminant gap of time, so WHATEVER people suggest as what may have happened IS a theory only.

I reject all theories since we simply don't know what happened.  God didn't give us that information.

"The exact same form of the verb 'hayah' in Gen 1:2 translated as "was" is translated as "became" or "become" in numerous verses throughout the OT. "

Has nothing to do with the correct translation of Gen 1:1 which conforms to ALL ancient translations. See NICOT, TWOT, BSC

[FJK]

7 hours ago, MichaelSnow said:

"The exact same form of the verb 'hayah' in Gen 1:2 translated as "was" is translated as "became" or "become" in numerous verses throughout the OT. "

Has nothing to do with the correct translation of Gen 1:1 which conforms to ALL ancient translations. See NICOT, TWOT, BSC

This is actually very important, if you don't fully understand Genesis 1:1 you will end up confused about everything else and never completely understand anything.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Stupid angels Huh?, I was agreeing with you about it not being about man, but never mind.

I guess you missed my point.  Of course God didn't create any stupid creatures.  So, if it not being about man, and not about angels, as your comment suggests, then who or what?  Thanks.

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, MichaelSnow said:

"The exact same form of the verb 'hayah' in Gen 1:2 translated as "was" is translated as "became" or "become" in numerous verses throughout the OT. "

Has nothing to do with the correct translation of Gen 1:1 which conforms to ALL ancient translations. See NICOT, TWOT, BSC

I'm not hanging my view on that verb.  The real deal is "tohu wabohu" poorly translated as "formless and void".  

First, there is no such thing as a formless object.  If it can be seen, it HAS form.  When God creates planets, suns, etc, they are spherical (round).  That is their form.  Whatever God did as described in Genesis 1 didn't change the form of earth at all.

So then, what does "tohu" mean?  Well, we only have to see how the word is translated elsewhere in the OT to understand what it means.

But first, let's look at 5 translations of Gen 1:2, out of 32 on biblehub.com

American Standard Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The Earth was chaos and empty and darkness on the faces of the depths and the Spirit of God hovered on the faces of the waters.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.

English Revised Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the water

Young's Literal Translation
the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

Also, the Hebrew words "tohu wabohu" occur in only 2 other texts:  Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.  In Jer 4, the words describe the result of an invading army.

4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, circumcise your hearts, you people of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, or my wrath will flare up and burn like fire because of the evil you have done— burn with no one to quench it.  {warning to Israel}

 

6 Raise the signal to go to Zion! Flee for safety without delay! For I am bringing disaster from the north, even terrible destruction.”  {warning}

7 A lion has come out of his lair; a destroyer of nations has set out. He has left his place to lay waste your land. Your towns will lie in ruins without inhabitant.  {this will be summarized in v.23 by "tohu wabohu"

15 A voice is announcing from Dan, proclaiming disaster from the hills of Ephraim.

16 “Tell this to the nations, proclaim concerning Jerusalem: ‘A besieging army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah.

20 Disaster follows disaster; the whole land lies in ruins. In an instant my tents are destroyed, my shelter in a moment.

23 I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty;(tohu wabohu) and at the heavens, and their light was gone.

So, you see, "tohu wabohu" is used to describe the disaster, destruction of the land by a beseiging nation.  The point isn't by whom the disaster came, which is obviously by God's discipline on the land.  The point is the description of the RESULT of the invading army; total disaster and destruction.

 

Then, in Isa 34:11 we have another description of total disaster on the land.

1 Come near, you nations, and listen; pay attention, you peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world, and all that comes out of it!

2 The LORD is angry with all nations; his wrath is on all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter.  {warning of God's judgment}

11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.  "tohu wabohu".  

So, those who insist on the traditional translation  (TT) of Gen 1:2 as "formless and void", have to explain HOW "tohu wabohu" can be used in a description of original creation.

Further, the TT of Gen 1:2 contradicts Isa 45:18.

TT - God created (bara) the earth and the earth was "tohu".

Isa 45:18 - God did not create (bara) the earth "tohu".

So, either TT is mistranslated or Isaiah lied or was simply ignorant about Genesis 1.

[FreeGrace]

57 minutes ago, FJK said:

  MichaelSnow said: 

"The exact same form of the verb 'hayah' in Gen 1:2 translated as "was" is translated as "became" or "become" in numerous verses throughout the OT. "

Has nothing to do with the correct translation of Gen 1:1 which conforms to ALL ancient translations. See NICOT, TWOT, BSC

This is actually very important, if you don't fully understand Genesis 1:1 you will end up confused about everything else and never completely understand anything.

Would you please expand on this?  iow, explain what is meant by "fully understand Genesis 1:1".  And how a straightforward reading of v.1 may or will lead to confusion about everything else.

Thanks.