FreeGrace Posted March 1 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,453 Content Per Day: 8.13 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 1 3 hours ago, dad2 said: FreeGrace said: Since you rejecrt the literal Hebrew, there's no point in providing facts. Your mind has already been made up. Those who don't want facts, because their mind has already been made up, are unteachable. You'll know the truth in eternity. The facts are what God said And that's what I have been saying. What God said is what Moses wrote. iow, the literal Hebrew, which has been my only point. So you don't even believe your own statement, by your own argument AGAINST the literal Hebrew. 3 hours ago, dad2 said: not some inserted long ages and mystery civilization and destruction of the world in creation week. You can leave your fav word 'mystery' out of your comments. It only makes you look bad since I've never used that word. It shows dishonesty, as if I've presented some mystery something. I have no idea what happened during the time gap. But I DO KNOW that the earth became a total mess (v.2) so everything that follows is a restoration. But you're too dogmatic to accept what the literal Hebrew (which is God's Word) says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dad2 Posted March 1 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,510 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 185 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 1 Quote That's a good one. But real silly. I'm not hiding from anything. I'm revealing what the literal Hebrew says It doesn't matter what language it is in. It describes the world on the first day. You have declared that to be some separate creation or whatever that got destroyed and then God comes back and restores it. Apparently you got offended when asked who lived there, so I guess it was abandoned in your story. Complete fable Quote The literal Hebrew all fit of an earth that became a mess. He created the earth, then separated the water and land and made light. You seek to take the attempted descriptions of that day and apply it to an invented alternate realty/creation so that old ages fits in there. That seems to be all you care about, compromising the word for science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted March 2 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,453 Content Per Day: 8.13 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 2 5 minutes ago, dad2 said: No I showed that the world was not perfect before the land appeared and there was light etc. Nothing to do with Hebrew You don't even know what you are talking about. You keep treating everything in Gen 1 as original creation, totally ignoring the literal Hebrew of v.2 which proves what follows isn't original creation at all. 5 minutes ago, dad2 said: You said the earth was destroyed or some such and then restored. No, Moses wrote that. Aren't you paying any attention? 5 minutes ago, dad2 said: So are you saying that God created a world and none and nothing was on it but it gets destroyed? OK, you just answered my question. No, you are not paying any attention. You keep putting stupid words in my mouth. v.1 is original creation of the earth. Everything that follows is because of the literal Hebrew of v.2, that the earth BECAME a mess (tohu wabohu). You are convincing me that you are simply unable to comprehend clear language. 5 minutes ago, dad2 said: Be clear rather than blaming others for assuming the obvious I've been very clear and your posts prove that you either can't comprehend clear language or you just don't want to. 5 minutes ago, dad2 said: The rest of the bible shows there was no mystery gap. You claimed The world was much older than Adam, correct? That means you are trying to find old ages in the bible to align with science. Be honest Actually, you are still wrong. Heb 11:3 mentions a restoration regarding Genesis 1. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. It is obvious that this verse is referencing Genesis 1. The Greek word translated "formed" is 'katartizo'. katartizó: to complete, prepare Original Word: καταρτίζω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: katartizó Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ar-tid'-zo) Definition: to complete, prepare Usage: (a) I fit (join) together; met: I compact together, (b) act. and mid: I prepare, perfect, for his (its) full destination or use, bring into its proper condition (whether for the first time, or after a lapse). 2675 katartízō (from 2596 /katá, "according to, down," intensifying artizō, "to adjust," which is derived from 739 /ártios, "properly adjusted") – properly, exactly fit (adjust) to be in good working order, i.e. adjusted exactly "down" to fully function. This word is actually translated as "restored" twice in the NT. Gal 6:1 - Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Peter 5:10 - And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. This word is also used in the gospels for some disciples "mending their nets", which is also a word for restore. So, more proof from Scripture itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dad2 Posted March 2 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,510 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 185 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2 Quote your own argument AGAINST the literal Hebrew. The only issue is your adding to the story by taking descriptions of the as yet unformed (to a great extent since there was no light no land no people etc) and trying to apply them to a made up alternate universe. Quote You can leave your fav word 'mystery' out of your comments. No way. Until you clear up all the mystery, the word applies in spades. Why was earth destroyed and was anything living here? The whole fable is muddy and murky and you don't seem to care as long as you get your imaginary old ages! Quote I DO KNOW that the earth became a total mess It's bad enough making stuff up whole of cloth but to pretend you KNOW is worse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted March 2 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,453 Content Per Day: 8.13 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 2 5 minutes ago, dad2 said: It doesn't matter what language it is in. It describes the world on the first day. This is beyond stubborn. Language DOES matter. It's how man communicates, but you are admitting your disinterest in the literal Hebrew, just because you don't agree with it. How interesting. A professing believer uninterested how the Holy Spirit led Moses to write what he wrote, which is clearly different than what most English translations came up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dad2 Posted March 2 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,510 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 185 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2 Quote You don't even know what you are talking about. You keep treating everything in Gen 1 as original creation Genesis offers it as such. Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them This does not say a restoration project was complete! Quote Actually, you are still wrong. Heb 11:3 mentions a restoration regarding Genesis 1. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. It is obvious that this verse is referencing Genesis 1. The Greek word translated "formed" is 'katartizo'. Already covered that. Yes He formed the heavens and earth. Not all in one day though. Period. He formed man also that does not mean He did not create man on the day He said He did. Nor that He did not put the stars in heaven when He said. etc. Forming does not mean restoring when it comes to creation week at all. Man was formed from the dust but was still created. The sun was placed in the already existing heavens, that does not mean it was not created etc Quote Original Word: καταρτίζω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: katartizó Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ar-tid'-zo) Definition: to complete, prepare Usage: (a) I fit (join) together; met: I compact together, (b) act. and mid: I prepare, perfect, for his (its) full destination or use, bring into its proper condition (whether for the first time, or after a lapse). 2675 katartízō (from 2596 /katá, "according to, down," intensifying artizō, "to adjust," which is derived from 739 /ártios, "properly adjusted") – properly, exactly fit (adjust) to be in good working order, i.e. adjusted exactly "down" to fully function. This word is actually translated as "restored" twice in the NT. Gal 6:1 - Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Peter 5:10 - And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. Applying the word to man is different than to God in creation. Man does not create! A total hack job in the quest to get your long ages that never existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dad2 Posted March 2 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,510 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 185 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2 (edited) 12 minutes ago, FreeGrace said: This is beyond stubborn. Language DOES matter. It's how man communicates, but you are admitting your disinterest in the literal Hebrew, just because you don't agree with it. How interesting. A professing believer uninterested how the Holy Spirit led Moses to write what he wrote, which is clearly different than what most English translations came up with. No saying it in Greek or Russian or any language would not matter at all. The world was not as we know it today on day one of creation, and we could apply all kinds of words to that. Even some words that could ALSO be applied in another context to man restoring something. Edited March 2 by dad2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted March 2 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,453 Content Per Day: 8.13 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 2 11 hours ago, dad2 said: Genesis offers it as such. Only in poorly translated English translations. I know what the literal Hebrew says and means. The literal Hebrew are God's literal words. 11 hours ago, dad2 said: Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them This does not say a restoration project was complete! Why would it have to? 1:2 makes that real clear, in the literal Hebrew. 11 hours ago, dad2 said: Applying the word to man is different than to God in creation. That's an opinion, and not an accurate one. The word 'katartizo' means what it means, regardless of the context. Or prove otherwise. 11 hours ago, dad2 said: Man does not create! Yes, man does create. Not out of nothing, like God does, but man does create. Your naivity is showing. 11 hours ago, dad2 said: A total hack job in the quest to get your long ages that never existed. I know. Your real problem is an old earth. Why? The literal Hebrew refutes your opinion, so why are you so adamant in rejecting God's LITERAL WORDS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted March 2 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,453 Content Per Day: 8.13 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 2 11 hours ago, dad2 said: No saying it in Greek or Russian or any language would not matter at all. This is tantamount to saying, "My mind is made up, so don't confuse me with the FACTS". 11 hours ago, dad2 said: The world was not as we know it today on day one of creation, and we could apply all kinds of words to that. Even some words that could ALSO be applied in another context to man restoring something. I'm applying the words as they appear in the original, and compared to how those words are used elsewhere in the OT. All you have is a lousy English translation. How in the world can your conscience be comfortable with treating 2 Hebrew words that were used to describe the total destruction of land in the only other 2 occurrences as a description of creation in Genesis 1? That isn't logical or reasonable. There is NO reason to accept "formless and void" in Gen 1:2, but you are straining to keep your bias against a very old earth intact. The only thing that SHOULD matter to any believer is what the original says, but you would rather protect your bias than acknowledge the literal Hebrew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted March 2 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 773 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 327 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Share Posted March 2 2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said: I'm applying the words as they appear in the original, and compared to how those words are used elsewhere in the OT. All you have is a lousy English translation. Has it occurred to you that you are writing this in English? Has it further occurred to you that it requires a translation from Hebrew to English? Have you considered that the translation you seem to prefer requires that the Fourth Commandment be false because God said He created the heaven and the earth in six days? As Christians we are to follow the teachings of Christ. Please show me where Christ told us that the Fourth Commandment wasn't correct; that God was referencing a re-do and not the original creation? I must have missed that part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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