Rev 16:18 suggests the earth is much older than Adam/Eve

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

So the earth was formed by God as He said in the verses I provided.

God spoke the earth into existence, per Psa 33:6,9.  It was never "formless" since that state cannot exist for any object.

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

First He created the heaven and earth. Creating is not forming. 

Exactly.  So when a verse speaks about God forming the earth, it is referring to a restoration, as the literal Hebrew of Gen 1:2 very cleary shows.

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

First we need clay and then we form it. So of course God formed and created the world.

That's backward.  He created a perfect earth in v.1.  Then, due to whatever happened in v.2, He restored the earth.

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

Fist He created it,

Yes, He sure did.

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

then He hovered over it, finishing it and separating the land from water, making life, stars, etc. It was not a flashbang event. It took 6 days to finish God tells us.

Yes, it took 6 days for God to restore the earth.

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

What you saw as a contradiction was actually nothing of the kind

Then please explain how 2 totally OPPOSING statements aren't a contradiction.

"God created the earth tohu (formless)"

"God did not create the earth tohu (formless)"

Whatever tohu means is the SAME in both verses.  

I look forward to your explanation of how those 2 verses don't contradict each other.

Just saying they aren't a contradiction is no answer or explanation, but only an opinion.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

You were not asked if you thought the ages and models of science 'mattered' You were asked if you accept them or not.

This was my original answer:  I don't really care what the origin model of ages is.  Doesn't even matter what science claims.  What matters is what the Word of God says.  That alone.  And you dishonor the Word of God by your rejection of the truth

By not caring what the model is shows clearly that I don't accept it.  I do accept what the literal Hebrew says.  Which you obviously don't.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

There we have it, your statement of faith! At last. The bible says Adam was made days after the sun. So it is obvious why you seek to reinvent Genesis. Just as I suspected.

You're not connecting the dots at all.  Why do you assume God created the sun when He created the "heavens and earth"?  We know that the sun is NEEDED for man to survive on earth.  So He created the sun for man's use.  So simple.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

It actually is the first day of creation and it says so.

Then show me the actual words.  Rather, the Bible says that God created the sun on the first day of restoration.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

That morning and evening was day 1.

Day 1 of the restoration.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

You seek to insert some mystery former world in there and claim God was not creating all six days.

There is no "mystery former world".  There is only one world, and God spoke it into existence in Gen 1:1 which is supported by Psa 33:6,9.  I suspect you haven't bothered to look up those 2 verses.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Only the first day. That is lobotomizing the bible!

Rather, I suspect all lobotomizing was done on someone's forehead.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

In Clark's commentary it says this  "The original term תהו tohu and בהו bohu, which we translate without form and void, are of uncertain etymology; but in this place, and wherever else they are used, they convey the idea of confusion and disorder

Well, thank you very much.  At least you now know that I've not made up anything.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Sutcliffe commentary says this "Genesis 1:2. And the earth was without form and void. תהו ובהו Tohoo ve- bohoo; when the mountains first appeared they were bare, and unadorned with vegetation. Jeremiah 4:23. On these words the rabbi Kimchi says, Tohoo designates the unformed mass, and Bohoo the form itself. The LXX read the conjunction disjunctively, ‘ Η δε γη ην αορατος , but the earth was invisible, being enveloped in the darkness which covered the face of the deep. The earth was created in a liquid state, a chaotic mass, having the pure essence of every mineral in itself."

Incorrect.  The LXX translates v.2 as, "BUT, the earth was unsightly...".  So do you really want to believe that God's original creation of the earth was so unsightly that He had to fiddle with it more?  Absurd.  Original creation of the earth was perfect, then laid waste, which was very unsightly, and God restored it for man's use.

I have Brenton's Septuagint Version:  Greek and English.  

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Wesley says this  "Where we have an account of the first matter, and the first Mover — 1. A chaos was the first matter. ’Tis here called the earth, (tho’ the earth, properly taken, was not made ’till the third day, Genesis 1:10) because it did most resemble that which was afterwards called earth, a heavy unwieldy mass. ’Tis also called the deep, both for its vastness, and because the waters which were afterwards separated from the earth were now mixed with it. This mighty bulk of matter was it, out of which all bodies were afterwards produced. The Creator could have made his work perfect at first, but by this gradual proceeding he would shew what is ordinarily the method of his providence, and grace. This chaos, was without form and void. Tohu and Bohu, confusion and emptiness, so those words are rendered, Isaiah 34:11. ’Twas shapeless, ’twas useless, ’twas without inhabitants, without ornaments; the shadow or rough draught of things to come

Nope.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

In other words, before the world was finished on day six, looking at day one, it was far different. This is news?

News to anyone who pays attention to the literal Hebrew.  God created a perfect earth, but it became a wasteland, so God took 6 days to restore it.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

False. The sun was not spoken into existing on day one. Nor man, nor the stars etc.

As already explained, we have no idea whether there was an original sun, or that God created one for man's use.  Seems angels had access to all of the universe, plus they travel through it from the 3rd heaven (God's abode) through the universe to earth.  So they don't need the sun like man does.

[dad2]

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God spoke the earth into existence, per Psa 33:6,9.  It was never "formless" since that state cannot exist for any object.

After it started to exist, He did many things in those six days. Now if the dark, landless, sunless, moonless, lifeless world that first day should not be called formless, we might consider a better word. However, it was here, and newly created and God had lots to do still.

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Exactly.  So when a verse speaks about God forming the earth, it is referring to a restoration, as the literal Hebrew of Gen 1:2 very cleary shows.

No,  when we form our neighborhood we might plant a garden, build a library, etc. That does not mean some ancient town used to exist there but vanished like Brigadoon.

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That's backward.  He created a perfect earth in v.1.  Then, due to whatever happened in v.2, He restored the earth.

Nowhere does it say the earth was perfect before the water was even separated from land. Let's be honest.

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Then please explain how 2 totally OPPOSING statements aren't a contradiction.

"God created the earth tohu (formless)"

"God did not create the earth tohu (formless)"

 

God created the earth not yet finished and to anyone who lives now, that would have looked pretty desolate and spooky. Since land was not yet formed, I see nothing wrong with using the word formless. However if you prefer another translation, who cares? So if we say God di not make a world of chaos and desolation, but a good and perfect world, then we are talking about after it was finished. No contradiction whatsoever.

[dad2]

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By not caring what the model is shows clearly that I don't accept it.

Now you claim not to believe the models and ages?? You already admitted you did and said something like the world is obviously older than Adam. You have to wear it now

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You're not connecting the dots at all.  Why do you assume God created the sun when He created the "heavens and earth"?  We know that the sun is NEEDED for man to survive on earth.  So He created the sun for man's use.  So simple.

The moon and stars are nice for us as well. However the sun and stars were not here the day He created the world and the heaven.

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Incorrect.  The LXX translates v.2 as, "BUT, the earth was unsightly...".  So do you really want to believe that God's original creation of the earth was so unsightly that He had to fiddle with it more?

How would a lifeless dark planet look to you if you could even see it, when there was no land? Is that your idea of 'sightly'?

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There is no "mystery former world".  There is only one world, and God spoke it into existence

Correct there was no inhabitants of any kind before the day it was created. But since you claim it was only restored, you should be clear about what you think was here before it was made! If I knocked a house down after the place was evacuated and empty, I would then restore it. So if you imagine a world that needed restoring you should explain.

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Absurd.  Original creation of the earth was perfect, then laid waste, which was very unsightly, and God restored it for man's use.

The imaginary plot thickens. So who laid the Almighty's creation 'waste'?? Guess God had to step aside for awhile while the big boys played on His world?

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As already explained, we have no idea whether there was an original sun, or that God created one for man's use.

Original sun? The sun was made on day on day four. You think it was laid waste too? Ha

[RV_Wizard]

From 2nd Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

[FreeGrace]

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

I said:

God spoke the earth into existence, per Psa 33:6,9.  It was never "formless" since that state cannot exist for any object.

After it started to exist, He did many things in those six days.

"started to exist"???  Really.  Psa 33:6,9 says God spoke everything into existence.  That doesn't sound like starting something and continuing until finished.  You need to think this through a bit more.

The 6 days were restoration days, not original creation days.

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

Now if the dark, landless, sunless, moonless, lifeless world that first day should not be called formless, we might consider a better word. However, it was here, and newly created and God had lots to do still.

And we already have a better word for "tohu" than "formless" since that isn't even a real state for visible objects.

I showed you 5 translations of Gen 1:2.  Here are how they translated "tohu":  waste, chaos, and unsightly.

Do you really want to apply any of these words to original creation?  I don't because I reject the notion that God is a sloppy Creator.  What He creates is perfect.  What others destroy is the reason for the "waste/chaos/unsightliness" that required a restoration before man could exist on the planet.

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

No,  when we form our neighborhood we might plant a garden, build a library, etc. That does not mean some ancient town used to exist there but vanished like Brigadoon.

I have no idea what you are trying to prove.  God created a perfect planet along with the entire universe (Gen 1:1, Psa 33:6,9) but something/someone destroyed the planet, which required restoration before man could exist on it.  That's the literal Hebrew.

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

Nowhere does it say the earth was perfect before the water was even separated from land. Let's be honest.

OK, so you are comfortable with a very sloppy Creator.  I'm not and I will stay with the literal Hebrew.

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

God created the earth not yet finished and to anyone who lives now, that would have looked pretty desolate and spooky.

No thanks for your opinion.

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

Since land was not yet formed, I see nothing wrong with using the word formless.

That's simply irrational, but I can't fix that.  Only God can, and He has already given what is needed to understand;  the literal Hebrew, which is the only thing I've focused on.

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

However if you prefer another translation, who cares?

Nope.  Just the literal Hebrew, which is easy to understand.  We have lexicons, biblehub.com, etc.

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

So if we say God di not make a world of chaos and desolation, but a good and perfect world, then we are talking about after it was finished. No contradiction whatsoever.

Hold on.  So you are now admitting that something happened AFTER it was finished.

Exactly what the literal Hebrew says.  Which is why the 6 days are restoration, not a process of creation.  The Hebrew doesn't allow your kind of thinking.

[FreeGrace]

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

I said:

By not caring what the model is shows clearly that I don't accept it.

Now you claim not to believe the models and ages??

Seems you're having difficulty focusing or grasping here.  I accept what the Word says.  If science agrees with that, I do accept it.  The Bible doesn't give years to creation, as when it occurred.  All we know is that God created the heavens and earth, but the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland, and without any detail or explanation.  Which I'm fine with.  If you have an issue with God as to what He had human authors write down, take it up with Him.

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

The moon and stars are nice for us as well. However the sun and stars were not here the day He created the world and the heaven.

So what?  We don't know all that God included in original creation in v.1.

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

How would a lifeless dark planet look to you if you could even see it, when there was no land? Is that your idea of 'sightly'?

"Sightly" isn't the issue.  UN-sightly is the issue.  Ugly, etc.  Are you accusing God of creating ugly planets?  I would never do that.

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

Correct there was no inhabitants of any kind before the day it was created.

To be clear, no humans.  God doesn't tell us whether or if angels had anything to do with the destruction of the planet.  Now you'd be getting into theory.

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

But since you claim it was only restored, you should be clear about what you think was here before it was made!

Nothing was here "before it was made".  Do you understand the Hebrew word "bara"?  It means created out of nothing.  iow, God spoke the entire universe and earth out of nothing.  That is original creation.  

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

If I knocked a house down after the place was evacuated and empty, I would then restore it. So if you imagine a world that needed restoring you should explain.

I have repeatedly, but you have demonstrated an inability to follow or understand.  It seems to me you aren't even interested in what the literal Hebrew says.

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

The imaginary plot thickens. So who laid the Almighty's creation 'waste'??

If God had given us any details, you wouldn't have asked this.  Why don't you have a real long intense conversation with God about how displeased you are that He would leave out details that would support the literal Hebrew that He did give us.

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

Guess God had to step aside for awhile while the big boys played on His world?

You can guess all you want, even being sarcastic about it.  Doesn't matter to me at all.  Again, if you are actually listening, God didn't give any details about who or what happened.  Why hasn't that sunk into your skull yet?

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

Original sun? The sun was made on day on day four. You think it was laid waste too? Ha

Never said that.  I said NO ONE knows all that was included in original creation of the universe in v.1.  Some people are just not teachable.  Try to convince me otherwise about yourself.

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

From 2nd Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

For sure!  Satan has deceived many believers and has made them to look like fools to scientists that have measured (forget theories) the long age of the universe.

I am able to look ANY of them directly in the eye and offer what the Bible says about it.

[dad2]

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"started to exist"???  Really.

Yes the world, for example started to exist before God planted a garden here for us.

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 Psa 33:6,9 says God spoke everything into existence.

 

Let's look at those 2 verses, and see if your claim about "everything" is true.

Psalms 33:6

By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

OK, it is not in this verse. This is about the heavens. Now that fits, because He created heaven and earth on day one. It also fits for day four when the sun and moon and stars were made. But this was different days and it is not 'everything'.

In verse eight it is not an all in one moment for everything verse either.

Psalms 33:9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

In each of the six days for all that was created on those days the bible says "And God said"

So yes, He spake and it happened. But not all in one second! It was six full days and evenings. You have taken verse way out of context to support your old ages

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And we already have a better word for "tohu" than "formless" since that isn't even a real state for visible objects.

Irrelevant even if it were true. The world was not all that visible on day one anyhow since there was no light yet!

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Do you really want to apply any of these words to original creation?

Day one is a great day to apply some of those words. Including without form and void. But since no one was there to see it, why play the role of expert on the matter?

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 God created a perfect planet along with the entire universe (Gen 1:1, Psa 33:6,9)

And it TOOK six days! The 'entire universe' was not here on day one either! No stars. No sun etc

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Hold on.  So you are now admitting that something happened AFTER it was finished.

No the context was IN the six days and THEN it was finished.

[dad2]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

For sure!  Satan has deceived many believers and has made them to look like fools to scientists that have measured (forget theories) the long age of the universe.

You have believed things science said that are based on faith. You have elevated that above Scripture. Just be honest, we are welcome to believe what we like.