by Grace and not by works

[JesusismyLord]

Hi

I realise you are busy having a 1:1 go on this subject but can I say something?!

Have you read Hebrews?

Yes plenty of times.

It is in the new testament and was written for the Jews who had become Christians but were having a hard time drawing the line inbetween Christianity and their old jewish religion.

I think it is important to remember that Jesus was a Jew and he came to fufil the scriptures being the Messiah. he does say over and over again No-one comes to the Father except through me and that he is the Lord.

Does he really fulfill the OT prophecies, re read all the prophecies christians claim are prophecies, read them in context, here is a website that jews for jeuss claims are all the prophecies

http://www.messiahrevealed.org/index.html

Jesus also pops up in the old testament- he walked with Adam and Eve, he spends time with Abraham, He's there in the furnace. there are loads of others when you look for them!

Are you sure that is Jesus? It doesn'y say it's Jesus, that is a christian teaching that God os three and that any time God appeared to men in the OT, it was the person of Jesus, the incarnation of God. That's not what the OT teaches, just the NT.

As for David after Nathan had been to visit him he realised how bad he had been and was sorry. When the sacrifices for sin were made you had to have your sin put on an innocent. You had to be able to give the sin up to God.

In leviticus the priests were to but all the sins of the people onto the death of an innocent ie lamb.

read levictus again, rarely do you ever see a lamb used as the sacrfice

The lamb's blood covered the door posts in passover- protection from death by the blood of the innocent.

the blood was there to not allow the angel of death to kill any of the firstborn, this is not saving everybody, even all the egyptians didn't by the angel of death. The christian view is that the passover lamb of Jesus was to save everyone from there deaths, but looking at Exodus 12 we don't even see the original passover killing everone. This is a whole different story with some similarities.

Both of these cases only lasted a short time. (priest and lamb 1 year, door posts 1 night)

Jesus came and took it all on himself for all time and so no more sacrifices needed doing.

This can only possibly proven from Isaiah 52-53, but many arguments have been risen to who this prophecie speaks of. The christian bible has changed some of the words in the text, looking at the hebrew this how that most important passage reads. This passage is troubling, I cant figure this passage out, it may speak of what Jesus endured, but so many other prophecies dont speak of Jesus.

1. Awaken, awaken, put on your strength, O Zion; put on the garments of your beauty, Jerusalem the Holy City, for no longer shall the uncircumcised or the unclean continue to enter you.

2. Shake yourselves from the dust, arise, sit down, O Jerusalem; free yourself of the bands of your neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

3. For so said the Lord, "You were sold for nought, and you shall not be redeemed for money."

4. For so said the Lord God, "My people first went down to Egypt to sojourn there, but Assyria oppressed them for nothing."

5. "And now, what have I here," says the Lord, "that My people has been taken for nothing. His rulers boast," says the Lord, "and constantly all day My name is blasphemed.

6. Therefore, My people shall know My name; therefore, on that day, for I am He Who speaks, here I am."

7. How beautiful are the feet of the herald on the mountains, announcing peace, heralding good tidings, announcing salvation, saying to Zion, "Your God has manifested His kingdom."

8. The voice of your watchmen- they raised a voice, together they shall sing, for eye to eye they shall see when the Lord returns to Zion.

9. Burst out in song, sing together, O ruins of Jerusalem, for the Lord has consoled his people; He has redeemed Jerusalem.

10. The Lord has revealed His holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

11. Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch no unclean one; get out of its midst, purify yourselves, you who bear the Lord's vessels.

12. For not with haste shall you go forth and not in a flurry of flight shall you go, for the Lord goes before you, and your rear guard is the God of Israel.

13. Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

14. As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"

15. So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.

1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?

2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?

3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.

4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.

6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.

7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.

8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.

11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.

12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

I understand that in AD 90 the Jewish councils formally rejected jesus as the messiah and the 2 faiths parted. because of this rejection Judaism became a false religion like all the others that reject jesus in this way.

Lets look at the NT, the main gospels were written at the earliest 30 years after the death Of Jesus. The main book that says Jesus is God in the NT is the book of John, this wasnlt written till at the earliest 90 A.D. This is 60 years after the other gospels and 90 years after Jesus died. The other gospels don't say Jesus is God, this came well after the jews were exiled again and the temple was destroyed. I just find it odd and troubling that this book(the most important to the trinity theology) was written so long after everything. Well after Jesus's contemparies were dead. I hope this isnt too jumbled and has helped.

jen

Edited November 9, 2005 by JesusismyLord

[JesusismyLord]

"JIML" -

I really don't understand. I keep reading how you don't believe because of what Judaism says about Chrisitanity and the New Testament.

Yet when asked, I cannot see anywhere where you show any understanding of what Christianity is about, nor what Judaism is about.

In a deleted thread - you even reject the Holy Spirit's testimony. How can you be born again without the Holy Spirit? And how can you claim to be on "the verge" if you have already rejected the Holy Spirit?

As for this response:

King david approached God without atoning for sin, he walked and talked with God and God directly told him what to do. God also came to all the prophets, but we don;t see a sin sacfrice being involved. In the OT, if the person couldn;t afford a young bull for there sins, they were allowed to bring a young pigeon, or even bread, lamb is hardly ever used as the animail to sacfrice for sins. It was used for passover, but hardly antwhere else. Did the prophets have there sins atoned for?????

So, when David sinned with Bathsheba and that whole saga, he never had his sin atoned for?

Is that scriptural? Explain with from the Law how this could be so. please.

What was the purpose of the Temple sacrifices?

was a there a temple at the time of King David for sacrifices?

No, but sacrifices were made in various places in Israel, even during the life of Samuel. Samuel had a yearly circuit from Bethel, to Gilgal, and then to Mizpeh. He also built an altar in Ramah, according to 1 Sam 7:17. So, to claim that no sacrifices were possible prior to the Temple is incorrect. Temple sacrifices were no fundamentally, no different than what was offered prior to the Temple in Mishkan, (Tabernacle).

If you read the OT, it's not just sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrfice, christians teach this is the most important thing to know God, but it's not. Read the OT without the christian glasses on and see just how the people talked to God and associated with him.

[JesusismyLord]

David wrote this psalm during his "crisis" with Bathsheba and the loss of their baby.(2 sam 12)

before the temple.

Ps 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Ps 51:2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

Ps 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

Ps 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ps 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

Ps 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Ps 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

Ps 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Ps 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Ps 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Ps 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Ps 51:14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

Ps 51:15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall show forth thy praise.

Ps 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

Ps 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Ps 51:18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

Ps 51:19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

this psalm is why I continually say there IS NO SACRIFICE FOR WILLFULL BLATANT SIN....

only TRUE HEART REPENTENCE, AS FOUND HERE IN DAVID--A MAN AFTER GODS OWN HEART,

is any sacrifice considered righteous...

we cant just say...

JESUS

JESUS

JESUS

and say he died for my sin---cause its NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

willfull/blatant SIN REQUIRES TRUE HEART REPENTENCE ONLY...

which is why he asked the question about the temple....

well put, its not just sacrifice. the christian teaches so much about sacrifice and jesus and not enough on actions, because once saved always saved is just good enough. Read the OT, its all about actions and how you life, not sacrifice and judging like all christians do, they try to live a lifestyle that can't be done, and judge everyone because they think they are so good. I dont want to hear the old line of its God thru me, its not me, yes it is you, who makes the choices, you or God. You do, God doesn't force you to do anything. Its great to have faith and believe, but christians are so wound up on believing in Jesus that nothing else matters.

[JesusismyLord]

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

Before the cross sins were only temporarily forgiven by the scarifice of animals. Sins were not permanently remitted until after the sacrifice at calvary

David's sin was not fully remitted until after the crucifiction. At least that's what I understand.

Take penfold's advice and read the whole chapter of hebrews.10.

e

read the OT and understand it fully before going to the NT. Why do christians just skip the OT and think the NT is the book. Read how many times God says he will forgive the sins of people forever in the OT without a sin sacrifice. Its in there but so many christians only know the presrcibed OT verses that have to support the NT, the verses that don't fit into NT thinking they just sweep under the rug.

Edited November 9, 2005 by JesusismyLord

[JesusismyLord]

I have learned enough to see the problems with christianity.

problem 1 is the book of Matthew. This has to be the worst book written in the NT. The use of alleged prophecies, I went through the prophecies and read them in context and they are just misused and mistranslated. Plus when you look at what matthew author was taking these propheces from, it was the Greek OT, the Septugiant LXX. This book is a translated book of the Hebrew language, we all know translating from one language to another is and can be a big problem, you miss what some things may mean, and many other problems from translating. Being that the hebrew bible is in hebrew and who knows the language and understanding better than jews who can read amd write in hebrew. The NT times hebrew was not the main language, it was aramaic. Which also leads to the question, then why is the bible mainly greek transcripts if the main language of Jesus time was aramiac.

Going through these prophecies one at a time and reading them in the OT, I was shocked to see how these veres had really nothing to do about a messiah, but were just used out of context. As a christian, whenever we have other religions who try to use the NT against us and try to show this and that, we say what"read the scripture in context" so read all the scriptures in context, not just the NT.

Judaism is a flawed religion and cannot be used as a standard against which to judge any other religion, much less Christianity. You have apparently not learned much except what a bunch of ignorant Rabbis were able to fool you into believing. You are completely ignorant where Judaism is concerned, and even if you did know anything about it, Judaism has so many errors in its handling of Scripture, it is not even funny.

As for taking things out context, Judaism does that all of the time, and they create elaborate explanations in the Talmud to justify themselves. Hillel argued that a person could defiled if a dead gnat was found in a mikveh. He based that ruling on Leviticus 11:33,36 which is concerned with the laws of consumption of clean and unclean animals, and has nothing to do with mikvaot.

Furthermore, context had to be violated as well as every other sound rule of interpretation in order to make Deut. 14:21 a prohibition against eating milk and meat together in the same meal.

I have seen Jewish hermeneutics in action. It is funny how they use the "context" argument when it suits their purposes, and then ignore the rule when it comes to their own interpretations.

I could go on and on about Judaism's flawed approach to the Bible, and why that disqualifies Judaism as a standard against which to judge the New Testament. You have only been studying this for six months, which means you know just enough to be dangerous. A good example of how you have been duped is your assertion that Paul and Jesus taught contradictory doctrines. That demonstrates your lack of skill in handling the Scriptures. It is therefore, not surprising that you mishandle Judaism as well.

Judaism is based upon several unbiblical points:

1. In Judaism man is seen as being a partner with God in the continuing creative process. According to Judaism, the creation of the world did not end on day six, but is an ongoing eternal process, and man is helping God by engaging in "Tikkun" which is basically the concept of the "fixing the universe." This is done through charity and other good works.

2. In Judaism, man is a free moral agent and is complete control of his destiny. Is free to shape his destiny as he sees fit.

3. Judaism teaches that man is basically good, and rejects the New Testament concept of original sin. It rejects the notion that Adam's sin has been transferred to mankind, hence they reject the idea that they are in need of a Savior to redeem them from sin. Judaism teaches that man has a good and evil inclination and that our purpose is to not rid ourselves of evil, but to balance the world by bringing evil and good into harmony with each other.

4. Discussion or speculations about the afterlife does not concern Judaism. Judaism teaches that the Bible talks about this life, and therefore, "worldliness" is not seen in the same way as it seen in Christianity. Judaism sees "worldliness" as a virtue. Judaism does approach the Scriptures from an eternal perspective in terms of an afterlife where we will be accountable to God for our actions and behavior. Again, they do not see themselves as sinners.

5. In Judaism there is no concept of individual salvation. Judaism teaches that salvation is based upon the betterment of society through charity and other good works. Judaism views the Messiah as a man who will usher in a golden era of peace and societal salvation/redemption. They see "salvation" as entirely corporate relating to all mankind. It is of course up to mankind to make the world better in order to be worthy of the Messiah. Messiah will not come, according to the Rabbis until he world is worthy of his return, therefore we must make the world better.

It is a logical contradiction in Judaism. In order for Messiah to come, the believe we must rid the world of the woes which the coming of Messiah was supposed to remedy in the first place. If that were true, then what need would the world have of a Messiah if the problems the Messiah was supposed to fix had to be eliminated by mankind in order to make the world worthy of the coming of the Messiah? It simply does not work.

I know what you have posted and if looking at the OT it meshes more with Judiasm than christianity.

Look at original sin, this is a christian teaching that needs this in order to have the once for all sin sacrifice of Jesus. But read Genisis again, this is merily a serpant, an "advesary" as the hebrew says, there is no angellic being here, there is leader of the demons here. This is merily a serpant. The sin of Adan and Eve isn;t a terrible sin, How do we know that the sin wasn

[eric]

JIML asks,

Show me where in Tanach does hell exist?

de 32:22, Ps.9:17, Ps 55:15.......... That's just for openers.

e

[nebula]

Well, it seems to me that you are definantly more interested in trying to "unconvert" us than find reasons to keep any beliefs in Jesus by the way you word your responses. Your posts have a teaching and promoting angle to them rather than a "please help" angle.

You say you are/have been born again. Well, as a scientist, I look for evidence to support claims, and so far the evidence I have seen presented not only does not support the claim but also goes againt the claim.

And you have still completely avoided my question. Do I have to pull up ever verse and paragraph mentioning sacrifices in the OT to show that they were central to the Hebraic faith? That faith was expressed through the sacrifices? But that would fill up more pages than one post can handle.

So for all of the above reasons, I respectfully leave this thread for people who enjoy "banging heads."

I know whom I have believed. I have had too many experiences with Jesus to be swayed by some theological dribble. Typical response you say? I'm not bothered. Resting your faith and trust upon your own mind and reasoning is what the atheists and agnostis do (though they will deny the use of the word faith - it is the same modus of operation).

Good day!

(or night, if that's when you read this)

Edited November 9, 2005 by nebula

[Guest shiloh357]

I know what you have posted and if looking at the OT it meshes more with Judiasm than christianity.

Im sorry, but the OT teaches origional sin, in that the OT teaches that sin is common to all people. The Bible does not say that we are born with good and evil inclinations. That is Judaic myth. The OT teaches that sin and rebellion against God is wrapped up in humanity. If sin was not passed on to mankind, then mankind would not die. Not only that, but the punishments that God pronounced on Adam and Eve would not have been passed down, either. Yet, the ground continues to bring forth weeds and thorns if left to its own, women still have immense pain, in childbirth, etc. Everything about the present human conditiona and human experience matches precisely with the punishments against man's character representatives, Adam and Eve.

You continually show your ignorance of the Bible, and demonstrate that you are not born again despite your attempt to lie to us and claim that you are born again.

You are probably a Jew who is masquarading as a Christian and pretending to have some doubts about Jesus as a sneaky way of dialoging with us. You don't have the integrity to be honest about who and what you really are. You are NOT a Christian, and you have NOT been born again, and your posts demonstrate it. You reject everything the New Testament says, but claim to be a Christian. You claim that Paul and Jesus contradict each other (a typical Jewish arguement). That alone sends up red flags.

You are using a false and flawed religion like Judaism to judge the New Testament.

Your responses would be easier to respond to, if I did not have the feeling that we are simply being played for fools. I won't argue with dishonest, and deceitful debators.

[eric]

I'll join Nebula and give this thread a miss. This guy is far too dogmatic for me.

e

[JesusismyLord]

JIML asks,

Show me where in Tanach does hell exist?

de 32:22, Ps.9:17, Ps 55:15.......... That's just for openers.

e

31 time does the word Sheol appear, but this does not mean hell as is taught in the NT, its the place of the dead. Its a place of conscience existence after death. Youre reading into the text more thasn you should.

check the hebrew study book for the word sheol and you won't find anyhting about eternal suffering.

Edited November 10, 2005 by JesusismyLord