apothanein kerdos Posted November 22, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2005 (edited) It sounds as if you are afraid that your God will be taken away. I believe that God should be far, far away from everything political and commercial.... The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. Psalm 9:17 If seeing God get kicked out of society doesn't make you mad and you call yourself a christian, then check your pulse because you must be dead. Theres countless verses in the Bible that tells us what happens to nations that forget God. Christians aren't to roll over and play dead in society unless we want to find ourselves neck deep in sin and depravation. We need to be active in all levels of life including government and commercial levels. THe Bible was written in a society devoid of not only God, but any sense of good morals. Yet the authors did not show much concern for that...they showed more concern over changing individuals and not society as a whole. I am sure we, as Christians, all want God in society...but He would have to be in society to begin with. The problem is, in every culture and society since He came and died for us, He has been absent on the broad spectrum. He appears in the lives of individuals, but no culture or society has ever been dominated by God (since the ressurection that is). Edited November 22, 2005 by Super Jew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerioke Posted November 22, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,850 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/11/1911 Share Posted November 22, 2005 I find it ironic tha so many are willing to boycott walmart for taking Christ out of Christmas, and there are also many who boycott Christmas because it is commercial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie Posted November 22, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 104 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,026 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/13/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2005 It sounds as if you are afraid that your God will be taken away. I believe that God should be far, far away from everything political and commercial.... The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. Psalm 9:17 If seeing God get kicked out of society doesn't make you mad and you call yourself a christian, then check your pulse because you must be . Theres countless verses in the Bible that tells us what happens to nations that forget God. Christians aren't to roll over and play in society unless we want to find ourselves neck deep in sin and depravation. We need to be active in all levels of life including government and commercial levels. THe Bible was written in a society devoid of not only God, but any sense of good morals. Yet the authors did not show much concern for that...they showed more concern over changing individuals and not society as a whole. I am sure we, as Christians, all want God in society...but He would have to be in society to begin with. The problem is, in every culture and society since He came and died for us, He has been absent on the broad spectrum. He appears in the lives of individuals, but no culture or society has ever been ted by God (since the ressurection that is). I agree the churches job (our job) is about changing individuals, I also believe that if the church is functioning healthy that this will change society. I don't believe that God has always been absent from America, I believe God was once a very welcome part of America. There has been a progressive downhill spiral since the 60's (at least thats as far back as i've researched it), that progression...or should I say degression, has escalated out of control over the past few years. I believe the root cause of that is "the church". I think any society reflects the spiritual condition of the people. If salt ceases to be salt and light gives way to darkness then everything becomes dark and Godless. Gods people should set the standard and hold leaders to accountability. As far as the lessons we read about in the Old Testament, I believe they are just that, 'lessons'... l Cor.10: 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted November 22, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2005 I agree the churches job (our job) is about changing individuals, I also believe that if the church is functioning healthy that this will change society. I would have to disagree with that. Again, no society has ever had God as the center. Looking even to the early church...they didn't change society...society killed them (including Christ). The success of Chrisitanity is not measured upon how society responds to the call of Christianity, but instead of how the Gosple is presented and how the Christian serves the society he is in. I don't believe that God has always been absent from America, I believe God was once a very welcome part of America. There has been a progressive downhill spiral since the 60's (at least thats as far back as i've researched it), that progression...or should I say degression, has escalated out of control over the past few years. I believe the root cause of that is "the church". I think any society reflects the spiritual condition of the people. It's hard for me to say God has always been present in our society when we had such issues as slavery, segregation, genocide, legalism, psuedo-spirituality, abuse of those poorer, wars to increase land, and other things. All of these were done and supported by society in general, thus it's hard to say God was the center when such atrocities occured. At least for me it's hard to say that. This is why when corporations want to say "Happy holidays' instead of "merry Christmas" it's not that big of a deal to me. What is wrong with a secular society acting like a secular society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie Posted November 22, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 104 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,026 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/13/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2005 What is wrong with a secular society acting like a secular society? When I leave here they can have it, but as long as I'm here I'm going to have a voice even if it means (and it eventually will) getting thrown in jail. If we turn a blind eye (which we pretty much have), we'll wake up one day with no rights at all. I know our kingdom is not of this world, but I still don't think that means to be uninvolved in the affairs of this world either. Proverbs. Chapter 14 ... 14:34: Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 (edited) This is why when corporations want to say "Happy holidays' instead of "merry Christmas" it's not that big of a deal to me. What is wrong with a secular society acting like a secular society?The point is not that there is something wrong with secular society acting like a secular society. The problem is a matter of principle, really. It is the notion that Christians can be forced to surrender the expression of their faith in any venue. There is absolutely no evidence that a business will sink unless they adopt a position of "neutrality" where Christian holidays are concerned. First, we are told that we cannot have any public expression or representation of God on government property. We are told that the Ten Commandments are illegal on government property, that having God in the pledge is offensive, that singing "Silent Night" is illegal in a school play, that having a nativity scene is illegal on government property (while I have been on government property have seen menorah's displayed around Channukah and their constitutionality never challenged). Now, we are seeing them slowly erode the mention of Christ from the single largest Christian holiday of the year. Now, people are told that they cannot have a Bible on their desk at work, they cannot have Christmas decorations in their work space that reveal a Christian expression. They are being told that they have to adopt "neutral" holiday greetings in order not to "offend." It is the secular society that speaks so much of tolerance, and yet is the most intolerant of the Christian faith. "Tolerance" means that the Christian should bow to hyper-sensitivity of some selfish boor who claims to be "offended" because he cannot respect a Christian's right to freedom of expression. Go up to Dearborn Michigan which is nearly 100% Muslim and try to regulate how Muslims express their faith, and see how far you get. Go to New York or New Jersey which have the highest Jewish population and start regulating how they express their faith publicly and see now many lawsuits you have filed against you. But for some reasons Christians are the big pushovers, who can be forced to give up whatever aspect of their faith, the world doesn't want to be faced with. And now we have Christians defending that kind of behavior... real smooth. Edited November 22, 2005 by shiloh357 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 (edited) That is the basic structure the world is built on. Push or be pushed. Wall-mart is of the world, Government is of the world. Yes, and we must live in the same world they inhabit. Why should it be OK for Christians to be pushed, but not OK for Christians to not want to be pushed? As I have said, there is no evidence that businesses will suffer if they do opt for a policy of neutrality where Christian holidays are concerned. They depend on their end of the year sales at Christmas for overall profits. Skinny sales at Christmas makes for an overall bad year profit-wise. So, it makes no sense to bite the hand that feeds you. All it would take is for Christians just ONCE not to buy gifts at Christmas (not that it will ever happen) in order for businesses to get the message. Edited November 22, 2005 by shiloh357 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted November 23, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 23, 2005 When I leave here they can have it, but as long as I'm here I'm going to have a voice even if it means (and it eventually will) getting thrown in jail. If we turn a blind eye (which we pretty much have), we'll wake up one day with no rights at all. I know our kingdom is not of this world, but I still don't think that means to be uninvolved in the affairs of this world either. I am not advocating being uninvolved in the affairs of the world. However, boycotting a private corporation because they choose to exercise their belief of what is appropiate seems like a waste of time comming from the CHristian camp when we could be doing much more productive things. The last major boycott was Disney...and last time I checked they're still alive and well. Irony of ironies they're producing a movie based upon the works of C.S. Lewis. The problem is a matter of principle, really. It is the notion that Christians can be forced to surrender the expression of their faith in any venue. There is absolutely no evidence that a business will sink unless they adopt a position of "neutrality" where Christian holidays are concerned. How are we forced to surrender our faith at Walmart? Is not their endless destruction of local shops and families and likewise their use of Chinese slave labor not enough when we consider surrendering our faith? Many of the items we buy there are made by fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord who make hardly one dollar a week working eighteen hours a day, who are marched into slave camps. Walmart relies on this labor....so I fail to see how them refusing to say "Merry Christmas" is anymore a refusal of faith than their blatan abuse of people abroad. I have been boycotting Walmart for a while, because I refuse to buy something my brother in the Lord was forced to make simply because of His faith....the Christmas argument seems a bit weak when compared to that. First, we are told that we cannot have any public expression or representation of God on government property. Which law is higher; God's laws (to share the Gospel no matter what) or the Constitution? More importantly, which court is higher? I work in a public school. As a teacher legally I am not to share the Gospel with students. Does it stop me? Absolutely not...the law, when it contradicts the laws of God, no longer becomes lawful. Now, we are seeing them slowly erode the mention of Christ from the single largest Christian holiday of the year. Now, people are told that they cannot have a Bible on their desk at work, they cannot have Christmas decorations in their work space that reveal a Christian expression. They are being told that they have to adopt "neutral" holiday greetings in order not to "offend." Why do they follow it? It is a part of our faith. Which is more important, a job or faith? Jesus told us it would be hard...yet here in America when it begins to get hard we complain and act as if though it is a suprise. My friend, chances are that yesterday in Sudan a young girl was beaten and killed because she refused to deny her faith in Christ. Yet we are worried because can no longer say Merry Christmas without fear of ridicule... Go up to Dearborn Michigan which is nearly 100% Muslim and try to regulate how Muslims express their faith, and see how far you get. Go to New York or New Jersey which have the highest Jewish population and start regulating how they express their faith publicly and see now many lawsuits you have filed against you. But for some reasons Christians are the big pushovers, who can be forced to give up whatever aspect of their faith, the world doesn't want to be faced with. Jesus never promised us a fair world. He told us it would be highly unfair. And now we have Christians defending that kind of behavior... real smooth. I'm not defending them. I'm trying to offer an alternative perspective to the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 How are we forced to surrender our faith at Walmart? There are Christians that work at Wal-Mart who are forced to surrender a part of their expression of faith by not being able to simply wish someone "Merry Christmas." Taken by itself, it might not seem like much. But it is a continuation of continuous erosion of our faith in the public arena. Is not their endless destruction of local shops and families and likewise their use of Chinese slave labor not enough when we consider surrendering our faith? Many of the items we buy there are made by fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord who make hardly one dollar a week working eighteen hours a day, who are marched into slave camps. Walmart relies on this labor....so I fail to see how them refusing to say "Merry Christmas" is anymore a refusal of faith than their blatan abuse of people abroad. I have been boycotting Walmart for a while, because I refuse to buy something my brother in the Lord was forced to make simply because of His faith....the Christmas argument seems a bit weak when compared to that. Just about everything we use in America is made abroad and much of it in sub-human working conditions. Everything from Shoes to Clothes to... whatever. How many of our stores, not just Wal-Mart purchase those goods? Wal-Mart is just one of many companies that purchase from abroad, items that have been made in slave labor camps. We need not pretend that only Walmart is guilty of this. Lets just not feed or clothe our kids anymore, or take them to a dentist because items in his office were made in slave labor camp in Taiwan. How senseless is that? It is deplorable what is happening in those countries, but we cannot stop living our lives on account of it. They need to the gospel in a major way in order to bring an end to those kinds of horrible labor practices. Which law is higher; God's laws (to share the Gospel no matter what) or the Constitution? More importantly, which court is higher? I work in a public school. As a teacher legally I am not to share the Gospel with students. Does it stop me? Absolutely not...the law, when it contradicts the laws of God, no longer becomes lawful. You are missing my point. I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy in those who pontificate about tolerance, but demonstrate the highest form of intolerance simply because someone says "Merry Christmas." Again, it is the principle that I am dealing with. It is those who preach tolerance but use it as a one way street when applying to the Christian faith. yet here in America when it begins to get hard we complain and act as if though it is a suprise. My friend, chances are that yesterday in Sudan a young girl was beaten and killed because she refused to deny her faith in Christ. Yet we are worried because can no longer say Merry Christmas without fear of ridicule... No, that is a complete oversimplification of the issue. Just because a girl was mistreated in the Sudan does not mean that I should stop caring when atheists and others start throwing barbs at my faith. It is precisely because I do not want America to end up with a similar policy against us here 100 years from now, that I speak out against these things. It is not simply the Merry Christmas issue. I wish that is all it was. My point is that when we allow one thing to go, when we give up some ground today, then it sets us up to give more ground later. It is important, because it sets precedent. I am looking at the big picture, not simply the "Merry Christmas issue. Jesus never promised us a fair world. He told us it would be highly unfair. So?? We should just sit back and let ourselves get kicked in the teeth each time the world decides that we have another public display of faith that they don't want to see anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His Ambassador Posted November 23, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 295 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 60 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/19/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1932 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Christmas is not a Biblically mandated holiday and was adapted by Christians from a pagan winter festival so it is not even exclusively a "Christian" holiday and we are free to celebrate it any way we choose or not celebrate it at all. For those of us who choose to celebrate the Lord's birth on that day it is a sacred day. For others it is at least a warm family time. Rather than criticizing others for the way they celebrate the holiday or chastizing businesses because they aren't "Christian" enough during the season we Believers would do better to share with them what and why we celebrate on that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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