What Disqualifies Allah As The Supreme God ?

[Gerioke]

Along with a bunch of car bombings.

t.

I can't see where they are the same. When you ask a Muslim he will tell you that Allah tells them to kill anyone who does not believe as they do. No they are not the same.

Have you ever heard of the Crusades? You know, the Vatican sanctioned Holy War. Where Christian knights went to the Middle East and killed the non believers without impunity.

Do not think for one second that your religion is innocent.

The Islam extremists are not indicative of the Islamic faith and it's not fair to judge Islam by their actions. Do you want Christians to be judged by the Ku Klux Klan and other right wing Christian extremist groups? No? Well find a dictionary and look up the word tolerance. And then apply that new found knowledge to the Islamic religion.

What you are looking for is compromise.

[Giaour]

I expect you to judge Christianity on the Christian Bible.

Just as I judge islam on the koran.

I have read it. Have you?

allah is not my God.

allah is NOT the God of the Bible.

allah is the sabean moon god that mohammed made up to suit his carnal human sinful wants.

koran commands the death of all non muslims, this book is evil evil evil!

[Inti]

I expect you to judge Christianity on the Christian Bible.

Actions speak louder than words. Unfortunatly.

Just as I judge islam on the koran.

I have read it. Have you?

.....

koran commands the death of all non muslims, this book is evil evil evil!

You claim to have read the Qu'ran so where in it does it say that?

allah is not my God.

allah is NOT the God of the Bible.

allah is the sabean moon god that mohammed made up to suit his carnal human sinful wants.

All of those are your own personal beliefs and opinions.

I am currently worshiping a small penguin called timmy. And to me you're a heretic.

[ayin jade]

You claim to have read the Qu'ran so where in it does it say that?

In part of surah 47:4

Thus [you are ordered by All

[Guest 831]

Hi All.

Just a few quotes for the person who asked for them Inti. If you so wish I can give you more proof if you so wish. We as Christians do not go of what goes on in the world or make our total judgement on Islam through what just goes on around the world, it is done & taken from your own Book the Qu,ran all these quotes come from your book your so called holy book. You make reference to the crusades well you are talking about something that happened hundreds of years ago, we live in the world now not then also you say these was ordered by the Pope, well that is Catholicism not Christianity. There are different groups within each religion as there is in yours so please do not put then together as one because that is not the truth. As I said we live now not then so why bring that up, we do not go to the past to find an excuse to do something we look at what is going on now not hundreds of years in the past. As I have said I can give you lots more verses from the Qu,ran to back up what has been said here, can you find similar verses in our Bible that tells us to kill innocent people or to kill our enemies. No you can not because they are not there. Your god Allah tells you to kill & be killed for him, our God YHWH Died for us. This is a totally different thing & proves the true God of Man.

God Bless to you all

831

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (2:190-191)

Slay the disbelievers. Sounds like a religious war to me. So does this:

Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein. (2:216-217)

And this, which identifies the enemies of the Muslims as disbelievers and friends of Satan:

Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value). And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan. (4:74-76)

Here the religious warriors, or the angels who protect them, are to behead those who do not believe:

Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." (8:12)

Cf. this verse, which also makes clear the religious character of the fight:

Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost. (47:4)

This one states the goal of the fighting in terms that also make clear that the war is religious:

And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. (8:39)

This one, like many others, makes it clear that the fighting that believers must do is not spiritual, but physical -- otherwise the promise that the believers will overcome long odds would make little or no sense:

O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding. (8:65)

This is the celebrated "Verse of the Sword":

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (9:5)

Again, hard to see that as spiritual or metaphorical fighting. And this one establishes that the warfare is against the People of the Book, that is, Jews and Christians:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29)

[Inti]

You claim to have read the Qu'ran so where in it does it say that?

In part of surah 47:4

Thus [you are ordered by All

[Inti]

The papacy of Pope Gregory VII had struggled with reservations about the doctrinal validity of a holy war and the shedding of blood for the Lord and had resolved the question in favor of justified violence.

Saint Augustine of Hippo, Gregory's intellectual model, had justified the use of force in the service of Christ in The City of God, and a Christian "just war" might enhance the wider standing of an aggressively ambitious leader of Europe, as Gregory saw himself.

Although Christianity's was the official state religion of the empire, Augustine's message in City of God was declared to be spiritual rather than political in character. Christianity, he argued, should be concerned with the mystical, heavenly City of Jerusalem rather than with Earthly politics. His theology supported and even helped define the separation of Church and State that characterised Western European politics through the Middle Ages and beyond (unlike the Byzantine East where earthly politics and spiritual affairs were one and the same institution).

Do I have to carry on wasting my time finding sources that show that Christianity also condoned violence in the name of Christ, or do you all get the point?

[ayin jade]

I found it from an online quran, from a moderate source, not the most extreme source. And my version has been accepted by all the muslims Ive talked to. Yours comes from skeptics annotated bible? Hardly credible.

[Guest 831]

Hi All.

I just came on to post this sorry about the size but it is needed as you will see if you try to read it all & if it is required I can & will post more but this is all jihad verses so there are some mild ones ok. Oh & by the way this is from a every day copy of the qu-ran one most people use of the web, used to try to covert none muslims so how can any Muslim argue with this copy, but I suppose someone will.

God Bless you all

831

A. Jihad Verse Selection Criteria

Each of the 164 Jihad verses in this list was selected based on how clearly and directly it spoke about Jihad, at least when considered in its immediate context. Most of the listed passages mention a military expedition, fighting, or distributing war spoils. Verses NOT generally listed are those that speak about aspects of Jihad other than the raiding, fighting and looting, such as:

Muhammad's poor opinion of those who did not go on Jihad, even though they were able-bodied and able financially (for instance, some verses in K 009:081-096),

The heavenly rewards for Jihadists, and

The many generic mentions of

Edited November 14, 2005 by 831

[apothanein kerdos]

Inti, you are missing a key point. Whilst murder and wars have been waged in the name of Christ, this is contrary to the teachings of Christ. Christ taught that we are to turn the other cheek, when persecuted pray for our persecutors...we, as Christians commanded by God, are to be relatively peaceful. Whilst war is not ruled out entirely (there are such things as a just war, such as the counter attack against the Muslim invasions into Spain), it certainly is not to be done in the name of Christ. If anything we are told to serve our fellow man, to serve them no matter who or what they are. Contrast this with the Qu'ran, which yes, I have actually read it (I am currently working through the Hadith but my schedule keeps me away from it) we can see where holy killings are justified. The Qu'ran is a quandry really. It does not call for the death of Christians and Jews (though it does call for the death of pagans) it is still very militanistic. For instance, it calls for the world to be brought to Islam under any means, specifically by war. Likewise, Christians and Jews are allowed to practice their religion (as they are "people of the book") SO LONG AS they respect and honor Muslim laws and are not in a government position. The entire foundation of CHristianity is found in the bloodshed of one man dying for the sins of all. The foundation of Islam is found in one man spilling blood because of the people's sins. While Islam can be a peaceful religion it is often not and this is due to the fact that the Qu'ran does not always call for peace.

The second flaw you make is by attempting to say those engaged in a Holy War against the US and others are extremists. They aren't, they are merely devout. I think you lack a true understanding of:

1) The culture

2) The religious teaching

3) The history behind the conflict

4) Effects on the modern culture

5) How Islam has been pacified in the past one hundred years

6) How the "extremism" is on par when considering history

I do not wish to go into it all, but I do request that you look at the reason for the first crusade. I am not defending it or the motivation behind it entirely, as it was done by a corrupt religious government, but the fact is the Christians did not draw the first blood. I can point you to the genocidal campaign by the Islaimc Moors in Spain against the Visigoths. Likewise you forget about the Saracen incursions into Sicialy, the Eastern Roman Empire (later dubbed the Byzantine Empire), the brutal killings of Christians, Jews, and pagans done by the Muslims from about 700AD-900AD. For two hundred years the Muslims committed genocidal acts in the name of Allah. What is more is this was begun by their leader, their founder, their prophet. Likewise, the first crusade to capture Jerusalem AND offer relief to Emperor Alexius I (Byzantine Empire) after constant raids by the Muslims into his kingdom. The reason to capture Jerusalem was done nobly for two reasons. Whilst there are many wrong reasons, and the actions of the crusaders inside Jerusalem were just as bad as the Muslims, the fact remains that Muslims were persecuting, beating, and killing Christians living there and taking pilgrimages there. Likewise the incursions into the Byzantine Empire were stopped. The unwholesome reasons for European incursion and aid to Alexius I and the capture of Jerusalem was, put quite simply, was for financial gain, not religious.

Going back a few hundred years, after the death of Constantine, the Roman Empire split into East and West. Almost over night (in the historical sense of time) the Western Empire fell. While many things can be attributed to it, the main thing is that is had no money. Whilst one can farm in Western Europe for a few months out of the year, during the winter there is little that can be done (at least there was little that could be done in 400AD). Western Europe, traditionally (untill the last three hundred years) has been economically weak. The Eastern Empire, however, had the silk road to rely on as well as many other items to enhance the treasury. Advance a few hundred yeasr and we see that Western Europe is still in dire need of funds (after all, these were barbarians a couple hundred years removed) and the East is still the place to make money. Notice that the Crusades begin to die out and people lose interest in them as Western Europe becomes economically stable. This proves that the Crusades were done more for economic reasons than religious reasons whereas the Muslim incursion into European lands (Spain, Sicaly, France, Greece, etc) was done for religious reasons more than economic reasons.

I say all that to get to the basic point that pointing to the atrocities of Christians does not work when discussing Islam because the atrocities of Christians are condemned by the Bible. I cannot say the same for the Muslims as their atrocities are pronounced and allowed in their "holy" book.