Arthur Durnan Posted December 2, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,782 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/14/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2005 Gotcha! But one practicing & proselytizing segment of Jewish-seventh-day Sabbath is indeed the SDA of one, Ellen Gould Harmon White, along with her erroneous "investigative judgment," her "satan as scapegoat in Leviticus," her William Millerism re the non-return of Jesus, on into the night. In fact, each group you mention re the Jewish seventh-day sabbath is, of course, as wrong as the next one. Thank You, Lord Jesus, for liberty to live as we ought! http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 In context (Exodus 20:8-11) - which is vitally important, of course - the Jewish Seventh-day Sabbath was given expressly to the nation of Israel, not to the Church of Jesus Christ at all. Why celebrate a keystone of JEWISH doctrine (along with circumcision) when, according to the Apostle Paul, Faith (the Living, all-conquering Messiah-Savior) has come? All Sabbath-keepers must peruse & memorize the Epistle to the Galatians with all due haste. http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com I would just like point out something about the book of Galatians. The book of Galatians is not, as may think, the death knell to Torah observance. "Keeping the law" is not what the book of Galatians is dealing with. The issue was circumcision. Evidently, this problem came about in the Galatian Church prior to the ruling of the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, as it would seem probable that Paul would have reminded them of this ruling had it already existed. It is my personal conviction that the controversy in Galatia might have been the catalyst for the Jerusalem council. You need to understand what circumcision means to a Jewish person. It is not done to just "keep the law." That is not the point at all. Circumcision of a Gentile is only performed when a Gentile is converting to the religion of the Jewish people. This was true even in Paul's day prior the religion of Judaism. When a Gentile is circumcised by a Rabbi (mohel), he is telling the world that he has now entered into the covenant, and has chosen to physically join the Jewish people. He has "converted," essentially. That is the only reason a Gentile would be ritually circumcised by a Rabbi. The problem in Galatia was that you had a Judaizing cult telling the Galatians that Jesus was not enough. They were telling them to be circumcised i.e., to become Jews. They were telling them that they had to physically join national Israel by becoming converts to the Jewish religion in addition to believing in Jesus. Paul never condemned anyone for keeping the Sabbath. He never condemned anyone for keeping kosher, or anything of that nature. He was, himself, a Torah observant Jew until the day of his death. It is important to point out that Jesus NEVER condemned Sabbath observance. What Jesus condemned was the hypocritical way that some of the Pharisees approached Sabbath observance. Contrary to popular Christian thought, observance of Torah is not the antithesis of Christianity. Sabbath observance is not contrary or inconsistent with any values or doctrines of the New Testament. Actually, if you read the quote from Galations that I point out that Paul is indeed talking about observing days, feasts, new moons. I point you to the 4th chapter of Galations for clarity. Yes, but their observance was in the context of legalism. They had been decieved, apparently, into believing that they had to be "Jewish" in addition to receivig Christ, and it was in THAT context, that they were observing the Festivals and Holy Days such as Sabbath, New Moon, etc. It would have been hypocritical of Paul to criticize them merely on the grounds that they kept the Sabbath. Paul, twice in Acts, performed sacrifices. He remained a Torah observant Jew his entire life, even up to his death. We find at no time any of Paul's enemies condemning him on the grounds that he had forsaken the Sabbath. In fact, in Acts 21, the second time Paul performed a sacrifice, it was to dispell the rumor that he was teaching againt the Torah of Moses!! Had Paul condemned the Galatians merely because they kept the Sabbath, he would have been reproach and a hypocrite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted December 2, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted December 2, 2005 so you are saying that if I don't keep the sabbath, I'm going to hell. Right or Wrong???? I think he's saying that if you know to do good(i.e. follow a command) and you choose not to do accordingly even though you recognized it was "correct/lawful", then you and God might have a problemo. That is not really answering the question. Sam asked a very simple straightforward question. Do you believe that Sabbath observance is necessary to avoid hell? Do you believe Sabbath observance necessary for Savlation, YES OR NO?????? Just answer the question and stop dancing around it. All we need is answer one way or the other.... relax bro. you want my opinion I'll give it to you, but it means nothing if its not in line with what God says is the standard. My quick answer to the question is yes...IF you know and reject truth. Just like a practicing homosexual who has heard that it is wrong but dances around scripture to say that it doesn't directly say that God is against homosexuality. I'm sure you'd give that person a straight answer yes also if they were continually practicing sin until Jesus returns/they perish. Then again my answer would also touch the other issue of OSAS. I believe Christ died for ALL of our sins, but I don't believe you can willfully sin and expect Christ blood to cover blatant iniquity...but then again that's me. My church is split on where they stand on this issue we have "traditionalist" and "Progressives". But it's my opinion you asked for and not theirs so my "quick" answer would be yes.(on that condition). If one does not know about it and is worshipping alternately to what God commanded but without the knowledge of why, I don't see why God would hold them accountable for not knowing any better. But for those of us who know to do right and don't do it...I believe there's a problem. p.s. Just in case someone read through that quickly and missed it....THAT'S JUST MY OPINION. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted December 2, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted December 2, 2005 see what happens when you don't read things through. You end up giving an answer to a question that wasn't asked. Sorry bro. Shiloh, I was in such a rush to answer the question that i didn't take the time to read it completely. I don't think that It (the sabbath) saves you, but I do believe if you love God you'll keep his commandments(decalouge) all 10 of them. And if you willfully do not then you could be endangered of lying. sorry again for the half response. I'm sure you caught that though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 see what happens when you don't read things through. You end up giving an answer to a question that wasn't asked. Sorry bro. Shiloh, I was in such a rush to answer the question that i didn't take the time to read it completely. I don't think that It (the sabbath) saves you, but I do believe if you love God you'll keep his commandments(decalouge) all 10 of them. And if you willfully do not then you could be endangered of lying. sorry again for the half response. I'm sure you caught that though so you believe that non Sabbath observing Christians are not in danger of hell? What is the difference between traditionalists and progressives where this is concerned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted December 2, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,089 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 431 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2005 The Seventh-day Adventist scholar, Samuele Bacchiocchi, came to the conclusion in his research that Pentecost always fell on a Sunday - "The second dating method that could be used today is to reckon the fifty days of Pentecost from the first Sunday after Passover, which means that Pentecost always would fall on a Sunday." ... "At this point in my research I tend to support the reckoning of the fifty days of Pentecost from the first Sunday after Passover" - God's Festivals in Scripture and History While I appreciate many things that are Biblical and rightly believed by the 7th Day Adventist, I consider their denomination to be polluted with errors and reject their leaders as teachers of the things of God. By no means does that suggest I feel or believe they are not sincere in their beliefs or that there are not true brothers and sisters who presently are entangled in the strong holds of many of their erroneous teachings. The fact that many people have come to believe Jesus rose at sunrise on Sunday and that Pentecost was Sunday does not in any way give credibility to it. That is like saying the majority has the determining power as to what is the truth of the scriptures. I'm sure you could have just as easily stated that: a. I'm not a Seventh-day Adventist therefore this does not apply to me or b. I personally do not agree with everything Adventist believe on this suject. All of the extra is unnecessary since it's definitely not building ppl like myself up...but I digress. Yes I could have. . . but because of the nature of their errors I am more inclined to state it the way I did because I would want to discourage anyone from considering SDA teachings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted December 2, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,089 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 431 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2005 Gotcha! . . . And just who do you have Arthur? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted December 2, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted December 2, 2005 see what happens when you don't read things through. You end up giving an answer to a question that wasn't asked. Sorry bro. Shiloh, I was in such a rush to answer the question that i didn't take the time to read it completely. I don't think that It (the sabbath) saves you, but I do believe if you love God you'll keep his commandments(decalouge) all 10 of them. And if you willfully do not then you could be endangered of lying. sorry again for the half response. I'm sure you caught that though so you believe that non Sabbath observing Christians are not in danger of hell? What is the difference between traditionalists and progressives where this is concerned? If you want I can pm you to a forum that adventist can't even agree totally. The "tradionalist" are those who believe as the pioneers did and believe that EW's prophecies will come to pass concerning the MoB. The progressives, while the accept her writings, do not claim that all she says is a prophet per se and that truth is revealed as knowledge increases. They generally don't whole to the MoB theory of EW and those issues concerning the sabbath. To answer you're first question, no. sabbath keepers are in just as much danger of hell as non sabbatarians, if they aren't truly covered by the blood of Christ. While many people in my church do (my opinion) feel safe compared to the rest of christendom, they are the one's who are really fooling themselves because they only know to keep a day and not how to be a christian for the other six days in the week. It all boils down to relationship with our Lord and Savior. Everything was done settled at Calvary, but we still have to choose to follow Christ not only in word. Now I believe that the HS can lead us to all truth concerning salvation. And I agree that only grace saves. My issue is keeping a command. I believe that it is important to God because he mentioned it in the NT as well as the old. I'll try to respond later, gotta get going...you know what time it is. Happy Sabbath everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted December 2, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted December 2, 2005 The Seventh-day Adventist scholar, Samuele Bacchiocchi, came to the conclusion in his research that Pentecost always fell on a Sunday - "The second dating method that could be used today is to reckon the fifty days of Pentecost from the first Sunday after Passover, which means that Pentecost always would fall on a Sunday." ... "At this point in my research I tend to support the reckoning of the fifty days of Pentecost from the first Sunday after Passover" - God's Festivals in Scripture and History While I appreciate many things that are Biblical and rightly believed by the 7th Day Adventist, I consider their denomination to be polluted with errors and reject their leaders as teachers of the things of God. By no means does that suggest I feel or believe they are not sincere in their beliefs or that there are not true brothers and sisters who presently are entangled in the strong holds of many of their erroneous teachings. The fact that many people have come to believe Jesus rose at sunrise on Sunday and that Pentecost was Sunday does not in any way give credibility to it. That is like saying the majority has the determining power as to what is the truth of the scriptures. I'm sure you could have just as easily stated that: a. I'm not a Seventh-day Adventist therefore this does not apply to me or b. I personally do not agree with everything Adventist believe on this suject. All of the extra is unnecessary since it's definitely not building ppl like myself up...but I digress. Yes I could have. . . but because of the nature of their errors I am more inclined to state it the way I did because I would want to discourage anyone from considering SDA teachings. You're perogative i guess. God bless you though and happy sabbath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted December 2, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,089 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 431 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2005 You're perogative i guess. God bless you though and happy sabbath. Thank you . . . and the same to you and yours. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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