Works/Fruit?

[Guest Orthodox Christian]

Charlie:

Orthodox Christian, in the past year I've been studying up on the RCC and the Eastern Orthodox Church. I'm facinated by both.

I am glad that you are interested in the ancient faith. But the thing about Catholics is that they hide a lot of information about themselves. For example, they were excommunicated from the Church (which was Orthodox, and not Catholic as they claim). And that was because they wanted to bring changes to the Faith. The Faith runs down from the Apostles, and you don't change anything in the Truth, or else it would be a lie. And from that moment they kept ever changing and moving farther and farther away from the original. Another funny thing is that once they had a female Pope... I wouldn't go into embarrassing details, but that's what they also hide. Just for a note

I've gotten a few EO books to read and I must say your approach to scripture seems so spiritual; it's facinating. I sometimes go to the EO board at beliefnet and just read the threads there. Everybody is so calm even when people disagree, or try to "troll" them. I feel happy when I've read there. I hope that you will post here more often on a lot of different topics. With your particular Christian worldview I would love to read your opinions on a number of things.

Well, the Orthodox Church is just called the Orthodox Church, there is no "West" Orthodox Church or "East" Orthodox Church. But there is another name of it -- Eastern Christianity or Eastern Churches -- that people oftenly use.

There are also a lot of publishers here in America that sell books in English, translations from Russian, Greek and other languages. I think you would be interested in the saints, Orthodox saints, not Catholics because... well, I do not advise to read their books. But Orthodox wisdom is what you are looking for. The saints have all different kinds of explanations of life, the Scripture and spiritual matters. I am not a saint, and I may be in error in some issues, so, don't rely on my words too much You might try to search for Seraphim Rose -- he was an american convert, a very gifted person (not a saint, though). Other names are Seraphim of Sarov (XIX cent.), abba Dorotheos (the passage above is from his teachings -- 10th cent.), st. Basil the Great (IV cent.), st. John Crysostom (st. Basil's friend, IV cent.), and others. Just put in a search engine one of those names and you'll get an Orhtodox library (or a shop) with other saints.

I have too many people disagreeing with me, and that discourages me to bring the Ancient Church to the light and show everybody what it is like. But people like you bring joy to my heart and strength to not give up. Thank you for your encouragment! :il:

There is another Orthodox forum that I am on now -- Christian Forums/The Ancient Way -- Orthodox Church. I am -- Happy Orthodox (not much of creative thinking here ). Come over and ask whatever you want

I have a quick question on baby baptism. I read that the EO performs immersion baptisms, and baptizes babies. How do you immerse them? Does the priest hold the babie's nose or does he just immerse the body and not the head? Sorry to ask such a stupid question but I've been wondering about it; how it's done.

No, I understand, I had stupid questions too, and that's totally normal Let me tell you one thing: when a priest blesses the baptism water, it worms up by itself. Really, truly, warms up. Therefore you don't get a cold if you are being baptised in a cold place. So, the question about the babies kinda dropps when you realise that Orthodox baptism is a miracle, and God takes care of things so that you don't drown or freeze Babies are immerged as everybody else. Nobody got hurt, because we baptise babies quite often. If you have other questions, you can send me an e-mail, or a private message, or post it in a forum

Suzanne:

The above was the essence of what I was getting at. With particular focus on the passages in Titus 2:11. This sums up the outcome of the power of grace working in us. It changes our outward and inward behavior, to the point that we become peculiar in action/life, in comparison to the world around us.

Well, that was just an excuse to bring up my point of how to get that righteousness. Kidding. I just feel the thirst for knowledge in Protestants, a huge hole of spiritual knowledge that you are trying to fill up really hard with all kinds of stuff. I think that isn't working because I compare Orhtodox to Protestant posts in forums and I notice that Orthodox are the ones that found the peace, and Protestants are still in agony of finding out what the Truth is. I sence that, because I myself was in search untill I found what my soul wanted. Orthodoxy filled the spiritual hole in my, but it turned out that Orthodoxy still has a lot more to teach, and I am too sinful to comprehend it. So, the search is over, but the work is going on.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that...

See, even the Apostle says -- grace teaches! It is not something that comes and automatically works on you like a dust busters crew in a dirty house. It teaches, and you follow the instructions.

AllforJesus:

Well I know there are many different orthodox churchs, and I do not know the differences they have, and I am interested in understanding. So you say they are all the same, in what ways, and in what ways are they different. Is it the languages which are the main difference?

If you read the 7 Ecumenical Councils, you'll see the basic belief structure and rules. It is theology, it is the main structure of worship services, practical rules, etc. The 6th is the one that explains things about Christian life and answers the most important questions. And in those things we are all alike. Almost anything beyond that is allowed to have variations. For example, how to cross yourself is same in all the Churches, but some may have an additional move or something like that. Language and heritage particular to that country (the saints of that country) is what is different. The services, the theology, everything else is the same. If you walk from a Russian Church into a Greek one, you won't be lost even if the languages are different. Although there are little differences in decorations. American Orthodoxy (OCA) one-to-one copies Russian Orthodoxy because it came from Russia, I believe, sometime in the 1800s when a Russian saint went into Alaska from Siberia and converted Alaskan natives. He is Saint Herman, very famous in American Orthodoxy. If you go to Alaska, you get to know what an Orthodox saint means. Orthodox saints radiate perfume from Heaven, a sweet aroma, even after death, some don't, though. And their relics extract holy mirrh, or blessed oil that cures. Sometimes that oil comes in great quantities. Many people get healed Many convert right away

I do want you to know in Greek Grace means favor

Have you asked a Greek what grace means?

by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works so that no one can boast

Yes, we are saved by the mercy of God. No works alone can save anybody automatically. I see you did not understand the Orthodox teaching about works. And let me tell you this: everything good requires work. Even your faith in its hardest times needs work. Everything. If you don't work on yourself you are going to fall into sin. You have to watch yourself every minute in order to be worthy to be called a Christian. Thoughts come, temptations come, pictures, dreems, that's all devil. And you gotta work to keep them out and yourself undistructed. Every step you make as a Christian, if you don't do any effort, you will fall into sin. And many people are mistaken by this "no works" slogan because as soon as temptation comes, a real serious temptation, they lose their faith because they don't know how to fight their thoughts. A man is not perfect, and he is a subject to sin, and I am really upset when a Protestant sins and is being kicked out of his church which members say: "well, that's your problem that you do not have the true faith and a true conversion." They throw stones at the one poor guy who was just being a weak human, but they themselves cannot honestly admit that they are without sins. That just makes me angry at those kind of churches. And only if that guy makes it to Orthodoxy, the church that consists of sinful members, and he becomes just a part of that community of fallible people. Oh, I am glad that I am here in my church and nobody gives me that look every time I say something I shouldn't say. I don't know how you folks stand it yourselves.

The reason the Apostle said about "no salvation by works so that nobody could boast" is just that people did not boast. There are people who are just too legalistic. They think that if they do something they get a reward for it. Many still believe that there you buy your well-being for being good. No, life is not like that. And it's pretty cruel to some of those folks who work as hard as they can. No, salvation is spiritual and not automatic. There are no tickets to Heaven sold out. You are saved when you love God. And to love God means to follow His commandments, love His law because it is beautiful as He is, and love His creation because He loves it. You gotta read the Gospels as a whole, and not by peices. And remember: it is Orthodox Church that composed the Bible! The Bible did not fall from the sky, but there was a great job done in putting the most important Christians texts together, because there were some of heretic works circling around. And the New Testament was not composed until the 4 century, and was not intended until that time.

So we must live in faith, obedience to God to have Faith in Him

Somehow I understood that Protestants and other new churches born in America teach that if you just believe that the information about some guy being nailed to a cross 2 thousand years ago is indeed true, you have a place in Heaven reserved for you. So, where does the "obedience" part fit in here?

We grow by God helping us to grow, we do work, but God is the One who really does the work, we can not save ourselves, we need Jesus Christ to be in us for us to be saved.

Well, the first part is exactly what Orthodoxy teaches -- salvation is done by God, by His mercy, it is not automatic. But you need to work on yourself in order to be worthy of salvation. One saint said that what you have here on earth, the condition of your soul right now, you will also have after death. Nothing is added, nothing is taken away. You are the same. So, think of this -- are you now worthy of entering the kingdom of Heaven and walk among the angels and stand before God? I don't. So I need God to help me climb the spiritual ladder. Didn't you read that example about the stone that I gave in my previous post? The person's part is just to believe and not be afraid of spiritual work, but just do it. And then God helps. When you try to do things for yourself (like the Apostle was talking about that people shouldn't boast -- when it is not your work, but God's, you wouldn't boast of it, right? You would thank God), nothing works out. But some Protestants just look like they stand besides that rock and wait when God will lift it for them. No, you gotta have guts to start (meaning, you gotta have enough love for God to start), and God will do the rest. That's Orthodoxy here.

When you say you believe what the apostles taught, that means in your case you believe what they taught, plus you choose to believe they taught what is taught by people after them also, in other words the many beliefs which are taught in your church you teach not only the bible, but the traditions in that church, and the beliefs of other people commenting on there beliefs about the scriptures, correct.?

You forget the power of God. God preserved Orthodoxy exactly as it was 2 000 years ago. That is why we have saints from all of times throughout that period. And they all talk about the same thing.

You see, Orhtodoxy is different from Protestant (and other) churches in that here nobody has his own opinion that might be different from others. We simply believe the Truth that is given to us and it is the most precious thing we have. We don't interpret anything because all of explanations came from the Apostles. And it's been like this from the times when the Apostles preached.

Orthodoxy is like an organism and it is the same throughout, there is the same blood type, the same DNA, and it is all harmonically built and interconnected. If something alien comes (a new thought, a herecy), that object is thorouly examined and compared to the Scripture and to the original teaching. If it directly contradicts one or both, it's rejected. You don't get creative here, unless you are filled with the Holy Spirit so much that you start to shine and radiate perfume. Men are fallible and they can be in error if they follow their fallible mind, which in turn under influence of devils. When you are purified of your damaged nature, then you can get the information from the Holy Spirit directly, and then people would listen to you. More so that the Holy Spirit never contradicts the Bible or two people who get the Holy Spirit never contradict each other. So, the organism of Orthodoxy is nurished and maintained by the Holy Spirit, and although some of its members might be wrong in some things, but the organism as a whole never goes into error, or else its head -- Jesus Christ -- would have to be in error, too, which is rediculous. New doctrines never come, but new "wisdom" is greately accepted. We are very, very sencitive to new ideas in teaching, and we reject them if they contradict what we were taught before. The Truth is more dear to us than anything else, it is as dear as God Himself because God is the Truth.

Jesus Christ is holding His promice that He wouldn't leave His Church untill the end of days.

[AllforJesustheLord]

I know work is necessary, but work is not done by work, but work is done, by faith, faith which works by love is what matters is what the scriptures say. That means when someone has faith which is moved, and does things in love, obedience to God then they will, and do truly have faith.

[Omega]

Hi! I'm new to this forum and like to introduce myself as a servant of Christ!

I took a look at the Parable that Jesus spoke among His Disciples regarding fruits or the Spirit and its relation with works!

1. Seed by the way side:Lack of spiritual understanding and therefore in addition to Satan catching what was sowned in his heart.{False convert, Unbeliever}

2. Seed into stony places:A believer that has not root, and only lasts awhile, but persecution of and Tribulation of the word, causes him to fall away. {False Convert, Ubeliever}

3. Seed among the thorns:Fall away because worldly desires, and temptations of the flesh,and material gain. {False Convert, Unbeliever}

4. And finally we have seed into the good ground:One who hears the Word and Understands it, in addition to bringing forth fruits of the SPIRIT.{True Convert}

As we can clearly see that all others are false converts, because they fall away, as it clearly states within those verses. And the above passage clearly shows that a True Convert will Naturally Produce works and also because He loves the Lord out of Gratitude and not because He is trying to obtain SALVATION!

Fruits of the Spirit

• LOVE
  
• JOY
  
• PEACE
  
• SELF CONTROL
  
• KINDNESS
  
• GOODNESS
  
• GENTLENESS
  
• FAITHFULNESS
  
• PATIENCE.
  

I know work is necessary, but work is not done by work, but work is done, by faith, faith which works by love is what matters is what the scriptures say. That means when someone has faith which is moved, and does things in love, obedience to God then they will, and do truly have faith. 

Beautiful!!!

God Bless!

[tsth]

Suzanne, that's why I said

The men of old received it. Many of us do not.

We are different than they because we are lazy. We take things for granted. We are not as much out of the world. We picked up some idols along the way, and it shows. JMO

As I was rereading this thread, this particular post from traveller really jumped out at me. I find it to be significant in this day and time.

I also have to wonder as I read this thread and saw the progression from beginning to end, that we REALLY don't like to talk about the "specifics" of work. We have become so evasive about this teaching, because of our fear of being labeled. I realize now why the teaching is almost non-existent within the church. It has somehow become offensive. Regardless of how we feel about it, I do believe it is vital to the Christian walk and life.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

Dear Omega,

Welcome to Worthy! I did appreciate your post and I agree with your study of the seeds. I also really like your signature line.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Omega]

Thank you so much Suzanne, I already feel like family here!

God Bless!

[Guest Ayubu]

Fruits/Works

I am of the pursuation that fruits and works are distinctly different. Fruits come from connectivity to the Vine, Christ and all are to do with the hidden man of the heart (spirit man). Works on the other hand are what we do with the outer man in the physical realm. the difference in the works comes in whether the works originate from the spirit or from the soul (mind/emotions/will). If the origin of the works is the spirit, then the works will not burn because it is the spirit of man through interaction with the Spirit of God that establishes the will of God. On the contrary any works good or bad originating from the soul or body will not stand the test of fire. this I believe is the reason we are told to "walk in the Spirit and will not fulfill the desires of the flesh..". Now, a non repentant person cannot access the Spirit of God through his spirit (sin disconnects that fellowship) and hence has no ability whatsoever to do the works God would have him do ( running the set race, Heb 12:1, works set out from the beginning) meaning that even if they are good works in the eyes of man, it will only be known what kind of works they are after they are tested by fire.

Fruits and works work together, but fruits are superior to works as evidenced in 1Cor 13 where all forms of good works lacking in the fruit of the Spirit, love are useless. It is good to perform miracles much more so when fueled by love.

With Love,

Ayubu

[Catsmeow]

"The most gracious Lord, knowing our infirmities and forseeing that we would sin also after the holy baptism, like it is said in the Scripture (Gen. 8:21), gave us, according to His goodness, the holy commandments that cleance us, so that if we choose, we could again [like in Eden] by following the commandments be cleanced not only from our sins, but from the very passions. For passions is different from sins. A passion is: anger, vainglory, love of sweet things, hate, evil lust and such

Man, what a bummer. Love of "sweet things"? You mean you don't eat chocolate?

YIKES! I'll stay my happy Protestant self then.

[tsth]

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

So how do you receive the above verses? What do they mean to you? Are they compatible in any way?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Catsmeow]

My understanding of fruits ...

Natural fruit grows on trees or plants and takes time to ripen .

We are trees of the Lords planting.

The first thing I remember recieving when I was born again, was Love.

Love that flooded my soul and made me Joyful.

So first I experienced the Love of God, and that brought me Joy in his presence.

These are not fruits but seeds...

Seeds that grow inside and begin to bear fruit in due season.

The first fruit of the spirit is Love.

So when I am filled with Divine Love, the Love of God, which is not in any heart by nature but is planted by the Father, so the fruit when it comes is Love going out of me to others. The Love of God overflowing.

Rivers of living waters.

Love inspires work.

Inspire means to fill with spirit.

It is the Love of God that created a need to reach out and help others.

When I do this the Love of God can reach another, so Loving others is work that bears fruit.

We plant now the seeds of Love and we hope that it will grow in us into a great tree bringing forth all sorts of fruit.

The fruit of the lips is praise.

The fruit of the body is childbirth.

The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace etc.

The souls of men are fruit.

Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

:il:

That's beautiful. Thanks for sharing this. Love it!