aaronjm Posted November 29, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 225 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/24/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1980 Share Posted November 29, 2005 (edited) In these verses Paul is saying that G-d shows mercy or compassion on who He chooses, and then goes on to show Pharaoh as an example, "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Exodus 9:16. I guess my question is, would Pharaoh go to hell because G-d hardened his heart. It doesn't seem to me that Pharoah had any choice in this at all. I'm not questioning G-d's will at all, I just would like to know if G-d would hold this against Pharoah? Thank you, Aaron Edited November 29, 2005 by aaronjm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmh137 Posted November 29, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 78 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/22/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted November 29, 2005 (edited) Not only Pharaoh, but what about Judas? He also was destined to do what he did. My questions also go to the very beginning or to eternity past is what I like to call it. Do I think for even a moment that the Almighty didn't know that Lucifer would rebel against him? He knew. He knows all. I some times get hooked up on this, or shall we say stumble on this. Then my husband who did not know the Lord for 30 plus years tells me that if we knew the rest of the story, we would be so ashamed of what we are truly guilty of. We all deserve death and hell, but He chose to give the world His Son instead. We all go to that place of, "it isn't fair." Do we really have the right to question He who spoke the stars into existance? I pray that He who started a good work in me will finish it. If it's left up to me, I have no hope. .......jmh137 Edited November 29, 2005 by jmh137 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolts Posted November 29, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 963 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/27/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/10/1963 Share Posted November 29, 2005 I have often wondered about that as well. The only thing that came to mind (and I hope someone will jump in and correct me if I am off track), is that christiandom was going through a transitional period during the time that this piece of scripture was written. It was a devided time. Many held on to the beliefs that were handed down to them at childhood, while others were convinced that this man Jesus was indeed the Messiah and followed him. The Law of Moses became the focus point. Jesus replied that he had not come to do away with the law, but to fulfil it. Looking at it from a historical perspective, helped me to understand that there was a big difference between the old and the new testament. The old testament saw devine interventions by God in order to save his people from slavery and bondage. The new testament saw Jesus as the great sacrifice for all mankind so we would not be condemned by God because of our sins. God chose Israel and Israel rebelled So now, God has openned up the choice to anyone who will believe in him. They will not die but have everlasting life. God knew Lucifer intimately and yes he even knew of his treacherous intentions. Lucifer was defeated and cast down to earth where he is to wait his impending sentence. Don't forget that this started from the apple. The knowledge of good and evil. Before this there was no evil in the world, only God and Man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLW001 Posted November 29, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 164 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/19/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted November 29, 2005 (edited) I think Paul provides an excellent commentary on this very topic. He says(paraphrased) "Who is the pot that it should question the potter?". We have no moral ground upon which to judge God. His ways are so far above ours that we can not understand all these things. From humanity's perspective it appears that God was unfair to Pharoah, but humanity has no moral ground upon which to stand in judgement of God. Read Romans 9:14-24. Edited November 29, 2005 by JLW001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjm Posted November 29, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 225 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/24/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1980 Author Share Posted November 29, 2005 I think Paul provides an excellent commentary on this very topic. He says(paraphrased) "Who is the pot that it should question the potter?". We have no moral ground upon which to judge God. His ways are so far above ours that we can not understand all these things. From humanity's perspective it appears that God was unfair to Pharoah, but humanity has no moral ground upon which to stand in judgement of God. Read Romans 9:14-24. I wasn't judging G-d at all, I was asking if Pharoah would be held accountable for what he had no control over. I have no authority to judge anyone on earth, let alone G-d, sorry if it came off that way, but in no way am I trying to judge what G-d did, and still does. Aaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmh137 Posted November 30, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 78 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/22/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted November 30, 2005 (edited) You are alright Aaron. God doesn't mind if we question him. The Word is full of people who did just that. God loves us so that He allows it because of His mercy and love. Jesus said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." I don't think Pharaoh made it though, because he did not love the Lord. I don't know why this comes to my mind, but I am reminded of Esau and Jacob. In the Word it says that God hated Esau and loved Jacob. Now to me at first it seemed that Jacob was the one who was at fault, because he stole Esau's birthright and then later with his mother's influence deceived Isaac into giving him the first-born's blessing. Yet, much later, when the two brothers meet again, Esau has mercy and love toward Jacob. Jacob had been transformed by the Lord of glory and He protected the heart-changed Jacob. Still to me what Esau did in forgiving Jacob makes me wonder if he was a changed person also. Only God knows each of His created beings and what their heart's intentions are. Ultimately, I believe that we will have to wait until after Judgement Day to know anyone's final destination. However in Judas's case in John the 17th chapter (the prayer that Jesus prayer for all His believers), He said that He had not lost any of His believers, except for the one destined to be lost. Those are not the exact words, but that's the jest of it. More later if you continue. Gotta go. .......jmh137 Edited November 30, 2005 by jmh137 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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