apothanein kerdos Posted December 20, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 20, 2005 You are continually confusing philosophy and science. Naturalism is a philosophy than neither confirms or denies the existence of God. You're kidding, right? Like, you're sitting there going, "haha, just kidding." For one, it recognizes no difference between the "supernatural" and the "natural" and believes that for either to exist, it must be recognized by methodological naturalism. In essence, for God to exist, we must be able to physical observe Him. If we cannot, then scientifically, He does not exist. We may believe in Him, but as far as providing any proof in the matter, or believing Him to be superior to any other God, we cannot provide a good justification. Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that a Philosophy created in part by Voltaire (a forerunner to athiesm) doesn't deny the existence of God? The purpose of naturalism (at least metaphysical naturalism) is to prove there is no need for the Christian God. Science merely cannot take into account a higher power because science cannot prove or deny the existence of God. The very existence of true science (void of any presuppositions) stands as proof of God. Unfortunately, naturalists, as yourself, argue against this. You say you can prove the existence of God, but you cannot in the sense that faith is a choice and an acceptance. I already dealt with this. I showed that God can be proven but people's worldviews often conflict with His existence, thus they choose to deny Him rather than abandon their worldview. Science by definition must operate in the natural world. One cannot have any preconceived ideas when testing a hypothesis. That is the nature of science. Science is not a utopia. The scientists that are removing their worldviews when examining evolution are often becomming Intelligent Design scientists. THe problem is, as I continue to point out ans as I have proven, scientists take a metaphysical naturalists approach to science. Thus facts are never garnished and the facts that are present are often misinterpreted. YOu keep going back to the defintion...no one cares what the definition is. Let's look at reality. As for science opperating solely within the natural world, why must it only opperate within the natural world? It use to be that science was able to opperate outside of it...yet since the mid-19th century we've been enclosed to just the natural world. Why? You may say that I am wrong, but I have virtually all of science behind my argument on this issue. The difference between us is that I have philospohy, history, logic, true science, and the Bible on my side. You have half-wit naturalists on yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted December 21, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 276 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 7,474 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1966 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Both of you are Christians (of which description I have no doubt), surely there is a way to discuss this subject without the somewhat hostile words? Perhaps a slight break in the action is needed? This is the first time I have read this entire thread, and to be honest, both sides are somewhat tainted by the seemingly insulting words being tossed to and fro. You both mean well, and this goes for others that have contributed in this thread, as well. It's easy to get caught up in this, so take a little advice from one who hasn't joined the debate on purpose: Relax, grab a Coke (not a Pepsi... ) and rest for a few hours. And be at rest knowing that Jesus loves us all. Peace, t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted December 21, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2005 (edited) Both of you are Christians (of which description I have no doubt), surely there is a way to discuss this subject without the somewhat hostile words? Perhaps a slight break in the action is needed? This is the first time I have read this entire thread, and to be honest, both sides are somewhat tainted by the seemingly insulting words being tossed to and fro. You both mean well, and this goes for others that have contributed in this thread, as well. It's easy to get caught up in this, so take a little advice from one who hasn't joined the debate on purpose: Relax, grab a Coke (not a Pepsi... ) and rest for a few hours. And be at rest knowing that Jesus loves us all. Peace, t. As I wrote earlier, I think on this issue, we will all have to simply agree to disagree as I am not moving others on this issue, and they are not moving me. Edited December 21, 2005 by forrestkc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khristeeanos Posted December 21, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 109 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,278 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 29 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/07/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2005 Both of you are Christians (of which description I have no doubt), surely there is a way to discuss this subject without the somewhat hostile words? Perhaps a slight break in the action is needed? This is the first time I have read this entire thread, and to be honest, both sides are somewhat tainted by the seemingly insulting words being tossed to and fro. You both mean well, and this goes for others that have contributed in this thread, as well. It's easy to get caught up in this, so take a little advice from one who hasn't joined the debate on purpose: Relax, grab a Coke (not a Pepsi... ) and rest for a few hours. And be at rest knowing that Jesus loves us all. Peace, t. As I wrote earlier, I think on this issue, we will all have to simply agree to disagree as I am not moving others on this issue, and they are not moving me. That is because you refuse to accept the Bible as the Word of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted December 21, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 276 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 7,474 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1966 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Perfect. t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 21, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Faith pistos is, by definition, a conviction that leads to reliance. It has nothing to do with provability or leaning on the unknown. It has everything to do with simply relying on something. If I have a fact in something I can rely on it, I can have faith in it. Thus facts do not nullify faith at all. As Dr. J.P. Moreland states, "To have faith in God means to rely on Him. Either way, faith is relying on what you have reason to believe is true and trustworthy. Faith involves the readiness to act as if something were so." Unfortunately you are buying into the naturalistic explanation of faith. In this we have a two tier dichotomy, where facts are placed in the most important level and beliefs are placed on the secondary level. Beleifs/faith is viewed as being seperate entities. The problem with this is that Christianity contains many facts. Therefore, the Biblical definition of faith is not belief in the unknown, but instead acting and trusting in what we do know. I like how you described faith there! I think that's the best exlanation I have heard yet. You started this post by claiming that I am either an Atheist or a highly misguided Christian. I am a Christian. I honestly do not mean this to be insulting, but your insinuation is so self-righteous that it borders on narcissism. How about we find another way to put this to rest. I mean, anyone can say, "I am a Christian," and repeat all the other catch-phrases of Christianity. But how about you give us something from the heart? like, what does Jesus mean to you on a personal level? What has He done for your life? Essentially, if one accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savoir, and if one accepts the creeds as their basic statements of faith, then one is a Christian. How they come to those beliefs is not the determinant factor. For some, this is an emotional decision, for others it is a logical decision. I would really, really like to hear from you what specific things made you come to faith in Christ. You say that: "if one accepts the creeds as their basic statements of faith, then one is a Christian." Well, what creeds do you mean? I really, really need to hear your testimony of faith. Please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted December 21, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2005 (edited) But how about you give us something from the heart? like, what does Jesus mean to you on a personal level? What has He done for your life? You say that: "if one accepts the creeds as their basic statements of faith, then one is a Christian." Well, what creeds do you mean? I really, really need to hear your testimony of faith. Please? By the creeds I mean the Apostles and Nicene Creeds. They are basically the most basic statements in of faith in Christianity. I am 29 years old. I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic school for a time. As an adult, I started to question some of Roman Catholic doctrine. However, I did not leave the church (I did not go that regularly anyway). My wife was raised Southern Baptist. After we married, we decided that before we had our son, that we should visit churches from various different denominations and find one that we both liked (It Edited December 21, 2005 by forrestkc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 21, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I think so . . . But I am a bit troubled. You see, belief in God is not enough, for "even the demons believe and tremble." If Christianity is nothing more to you than "belief" then you have missed out on what it means to have a walk with the Lord. There needs to be repentance of sin (which we all have) and receiving Jesus' death as atonement for that sin and joining into His death and resurrection. In everything I read yu saying, I can't find this expression of faith coming through. And that bothers me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted December 22, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2005 (edited) I think so . . . But I am a bit troubled. You see, belief in God is not enough, for "even the demons believe and tremble." If Christianity is nothing more to you than "belief" then you have missed out on what it means to have a walk with the Lord. There needs to be repentance of sin (which we all have) and receiving Jesus' death as atonement for that sin and joining into His death and resurrection. In everything I read yu saying, I can't find this expression of faith coming through. And that bothers me. There is a condescending tone to your post that I am going to assume is just concern on your part that is poorly conveyed. Christianity is not just a belief with me. I think you fail to understand my point. Different people come to God in different ways. We don Edited December 22, 2005 by forrestkc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 22, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Thanks - that's what I needed to hear! Something that comes from your heart that expresses love for the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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