Guest RickLee Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 When confronting atheists on line I do not expect to thaw out their hardened hearts but I do know that my answers are being watched by a hundred other eyes and hearts that are seeking the Lord. Careful, my friend. We should always expect to thaw out a hardened heart. It's why we spread the message in the first place. We should be ready to defend our faith, of course, and you brought up a very good point in your OP. Things will get worse in regards to "scholars" and their ever-increasing ways to discredit the Bible. If it wasn't so, then the Bible would be lying, for it predicts this in the verses that larryt cited, as well as others. Remember the key: Deut 29:29. Christ will come back, have no fear. In the meantime, let's be ready and seek out those that may be seeking. You just never know just who that may include. Love, t. The problem with evidence is that it can usually be interpreted in more than one way. The Word of God is not open to any one person's interpretation. Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen. I believe that we should avoid Earthly warfare techniques when operating in spiritual realms. Without exception, every single time I have allowed myself to be drawn into these types of discussions I have walked away feeling frustrated and foolish for having wasted the opportunity to witness to these lost friends through speaking the Word of God and prayer. It wasn't until I surrendered my need to show how smart I was that I began to see how powerful our God is. Just lift Him up and wait for Him to draw them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted December 23, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 276 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 7,474 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1966 Share Posted December 23, 2005 Amen! t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted December 23, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 23, 2005 When confronting atheists on line I do not expect to thaw out their hardened hearts but I do know that my answers are being watched by a hundred other eyes and hearts that are seeking the Lord. Careful, my friend. We should always expect to thaw out a hardened heart. It's why we spread the message in the first place. We should be ready to defend our faith, of course, and you brought up a very good point in your OP. Things will get worse in regards to "scholars" and their ever-increasing ways to discredit the Bible. If it wasn't so, then the Bible would be lying, for it predicts this in the verses that larryt cited, as well as others. Remember the key: Deut 29:29. Christ will come back, have no fear. In the meantime, let's be ready and seek out those that may be seeking. You just never know just who that may include. Love, t. The problem with evidence is that it can usually be interpreted in more than one way. The Word of God is not open to any one person's interpretation. Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen. I believe that we should avoid Earthly warfare techniques when operating in spiritual realms. Without exception, every single time I have allowed myself to be drawn into these types of discussions I have walked away feeling frustrated and foolish for having wasted the opportunity to witness to these lost friends through speaking the Word of God and prayer. It wasn't until I surrendered my need to show how smart I was that I began to see how powerful our God is. Just lift Him up and wait for Him to draw them in. The problem is you didn't recognize the worldview behind the athiests. YOu can debate with one until you're blue in the fact, but until you learn what their philisophical foundation is and how to deconstruct it, it's useless. Notice how Paul addressed the intellectual Greeks, the crowds, the Christians, and the educated Jews. He approached them all in different manners and presented the Gospel in different ways. This was because he attacked their understanding of the world instead of their objection to Christ. If the core element (the false view of the world) is destroyed, then ultimately there is no objection to Christ. This takes the Holy Spirit and a well sharpened mind. I believe you fulfill both of those requirements. My suggestion to you, now, would be to read some books that speak of how worldviews are developed (such as books by Moreland, Wittmer, Pearcy, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted December 23, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 23, 2005 McDowell's material, like other apologetic sources such as AIG, serves one purpose out of many. All of us have different gifts, different ministries, and we need to work together. All too often we forget that we are a body, and "each part belongs to all the others... the eye cannot say to the hand, 'I don't need you'". Rather than make the body all one part, and call for all of us to do only one thing, let's not speculate on which part of the body is the "right" one and let each one do their job. In other words, let's not bring a knife to a gunfight. Apologetics has its place and time, as does prayer and philosophy and whatever else you can think of. I agree. What I was saying though is that philosophy is part of apologetics. All apologists, no matter where they put their emphasis in study (salvation, God, creation, etc) must, at the base value, understand the philosophy of this world otherwise they cannot effectively argue the case for Christ. I agree all apologists must work together, this is essential (staring an actual foundation might be beneficial as well). But if we do not understand the philosophy behind certain beliefs, then it's harder to deconstruct them. I hope your a Star Wars fan, cause here's an analogy The Death Star. While it could be attacked from the outside (reference the star destroyer crashing into it) and damage can be caused, the only way to truly destroy it is to attack it's center, it's core. False beliefs are the same way. Certain arguments within apologetics allows us to attack these beliefs from the outside, and even cause damage and potentially win a debate. However, the only way to destroy an arguement and a person's worldview (which leads them wide open to accept the Gospel) is to attack its center. Just so happens that at the center of every belief is a philosophy on life. If we can destroy that, then eventually the rest crumbles. Does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted December 23, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 23, 2005 The problem is you didn't recognize the worldview behind the athiests. YOu can debate with one until you're blue in the fact, but until you learn what their philisophical foundation is and how to deconstruct it, it's useless. Notice how Paul addressed the intellectual Greeks, the crowds, the Christians, and the educated Jews. He approached them all in different manners and presented the Gospel in different ways. This was because he attacked their understanding of the world instead of their objection to Christ. If the core element (the false view of the world) is destroyed, then ultimately there is no objection to Christ. This takes the Holy Spirit and a well sharpened mind. I believe you fulfill both of those requirements. My suggestion to you, now, would be to read some books that speak of how worldviews are developed (such as books by Moreland, Wittmer, Pearcy, etc). True, and I would add a study of the basics of logic to that. You can destroy just about any argument if you know how to spot fallacies and exploit them. Good point, didn't think of that. There sure are a lot of "basics" with apologetics. Study of logic, study of philosophy, study of scripture, understanding the "basic" elements of Christianity.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted December 23, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 23, 2005 I agree. What I was saying though is that philosophy is part of apologetics. All apologists, no matter where they put their emphasis in study (salvation, God, creation, etc) must, at the base value, understand the philosophy of this world otherwise they cannot effectively argue the case for Christ. I agree all apologists must work together, this is essential (staring an actual foundation might be beneficial as well). But if we do not understand the philosophy behind certain beliefs, then it's harder to deconstruct them. True, it's all apologetics in one form or another. I was referring to the common practice of Christians getting upset with each other for not always emphasizing only one technique, such as "friendship evangelism", and never allowing intellectual debate at all because it's so "negative". Not saying that has happened here, but it's a common problem. I hope your a Star Wars fan, cause here's an analogy The Death Star. While it could be attacked from the outside (reference the star destroyer crashing into it) and damage can be caused, the only way to truly destroy it is to attack it's center, it's core. False beliefs are the same way. Certain arguments within apologetics allows us to attack these beliefs from the outside, and even cause damage and potentially win a debate. However, the only way to destroy an arguement and a person's worldview (which leads them wide open to accept the Gospel) is to attack its center. Just so happens that at the center of every belief is a philosophy on life. If we can destroy that, then eventually the rest crumbles. Does that make sense? "I happen to like nice men." (Princess Leia, SW ep. V) That's essentially the focus of AIG, to aim at the foundations and stop wasting time on what's built on them. Only thing is, some (most?) people don't care if you prove their system false. They won't automatically explode if you reach the core. But our job is to take them there and let them decide whether to stay there and die with the ship or allow themselves to be rescued. I agree 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted December 24, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 24, 2005 Leonard: There is simply more historical evidence for Jesus, than for ANY fact of the ancient world. Perhaps you could cite some. I'd like to hear some too. People here keep telling me there is all this proof and when I press for some all I get are bible verses and Josephus, which is proven to be a fraud. Josephus has not been proven to be a fraud. What it is, is people doubt his writings because he lends credit to Christ being a deity. However, the writing style is the same throughout all of Josephus' writings. Only the ignorant call it a fraud. None the less, I have supplied much more than Josephus. Obviously you have never read his work. Josephus was a devout Jew and historian and the so called passage that mentions Jesus is written in a very unjew-like manner. It is also smack dab between paragraphs dealing with a war totally unrelated to Jesus and is totally inconsistant with his narrative style. And to top it off, none of the earliest versions of his work have this passage. it should also be noted that the Bishop who discovered it said it was okay to lie if it leads people to Christianity. Odd, I could have sworn I responded to this. Anyway, what I said was that I won't debate Josephus with you because it's useless. i used MANY other references outside of him that it doesn't matter in this debate. Just to add to this though, it is found in all other copies, it fits the writing style of Josephus, it's found under the part where he is talking about the reign of Pontius Pilate (which means it would fit perfectly within it), it is definately his writing style, and it was quoted by Origen and Eseubias....thus it's absurd to say that it's not a part of his writings and was added post-text. Anyway, the fact remains, I have many extra-Biblical sources...so it still stands to reason that to say there is no historical evidence for Jesus is ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneV Posted December 25, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 720 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/23/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/20/1947 Share Posted December 25, 2005 I have not been here long enough to ask a question in the controversial section of the forum so I will ask it here. A movie whose purpose is to prove that Jesus Christ never existed and that demonizes Christian fundamentalists is scheduled to open on June 6, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Journey Posted December 25, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 582 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/19/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/10/1970 Share Posted December 25, 2005 Irish, I think it does boil down to faith. But then, so does almost everything else we do in the physical world. How do you know Shakespeare existed? or George Washington? None of us were there to know for sure. But we have faith in those who wrote about these men as eye witnesses. We have faith that the work written by these men are true and accurate. It is the same for Jesus. Same standard of "proof." The problem with Jesus is that he claimed to be something utterly different than any other historical figure.... He claimed to be God. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted December 25, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 25, 2005 I have not been here long enough to ask a question in the controversial section of the forum so I will ask it here. A movie whose purpose is to prove that Jesus Christ never existed and that demonizes Christian fundamentalists is scheduled to open on June 6, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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