The Trinity?

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Jan 23 2006, 11:00 PM)

"Son of God," and "God the Son" are the same thing. They express (from the biblical Hebraic perspective) the same concept. "Son of God" is an expression that demonstrates equality with God. It is not same expression as "sons of God" which we are, on a lesser level.

"Equality with God" doesn't make our Lord Jesus Christ the true God Himself.

He is called the "Son of God" to distinct Himself from the ONE TRUE GOD - the Father.

For me, and for Jesus, there is ONLY one true God - and that is our Father.

What you are putting forth is a scriptural impossibility. When Jesus called Himself the "Son of God" He is saying that He is God. You cannot be equal with God, but not be God.

I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

(Isaiah 43:11)

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

(Isaiah 44:6)

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

(Isaiah 44:8)

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

(Isaiah 45:5-6)

God says that He alone is God, and NO ONE else occupies that space. He stands alone in that capacity. Notice that in Isaiah 44:6, God says that He calls Himself a redeemer, AND that He is the "first and the last." Notice that Jesus said about Himself: Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

(Revelation 1:11)

Jesus could not say that He is the First and the Last, if He were not true God. God will not share His titles with ANYONE. Therefore for Jesus to allowed to use that title, indicates that He is God as much as the Father.

Lets read some more:

I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

(Isaiah 43:11)

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.

(Isaiah 45:21)

Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no savior beside me.

(Hosea 13:4)

Now God says that there is no Savior other than Him. He has no equal in this respect. No one can save, except God. Yet we read in the New Testament:

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

(Matthew 1:21)

For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

(Matthew 18:11)

For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

(Luke 9:56)

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

(Luke 19:10)

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

(John 12:47)

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

(Acts 4:12)

God is the only Savior, and will not share that glory with anyone else. There is no way that Jesus could be the Savior, and not be God. He is not the Father, but He is God, and He is just as much God, as the Father.

Notice also in Isaiah what God says:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

(Isaiah 9:6)

This is descriptive of Jesus. Notice two things: He is called "El Gibor" or "Mighty God." This is accompanied by a definite article, which translates as "the." Meaning that this child is THE Mighty God. It is a specific person being identified. There is only ONE God who qualifies as "THE Mighty God." He is the God of the Bible.

Also note, that this child is also called "Avi ad" or Everlasting Father. A better translation from Hebrew would be "the Father of eternity." In other words, he is the originator, or initiator of eternity. It does not mean "Father" in a paternal sense. It is not saying that Jesus is the Father. It is saying that Jesus is the architect, or the chief of eternity, the Author of the ages. It is the same concept expressed by the Apostle Paul in Colossians when it says that Jesus was the "first born" of all creation. It is a title indicating Jesus as the head or chief of creation. "First born" is a title of pre-eminence, it is not saying that Jesus was created. So what we have in Isaiah is a picture of Jesus as the Mighty God who is the author of creation. That is why Jesus, like God the Father, can say, "I am the first and the last." Jesus was was the "Word" that was with God, and was/is God. Jesus is just as much "God" as the Father.

[BlindSeeker]

Conclusively what is, is real. The imagination of man is not. Theories of time out of the imaginations of man will give way to what is known to be real. Yesterday is spent, gone and will not return. God has rolled it up like a scroll behind you. This is conclusive. The only thing left of the past is Gods motion toward tomorrow because of what happened yesterday.

Denise

For man, yesterday is certainly past and the future uncertain, for he is without doubt a captive traveler of linear time. Can you say absolutely that God too is confined in the pinpoint of time's present traveling the same progressive shift of linear time?

Did you even open the link offered?

[BlindSeeker]

What you are putting forth is a scriptural impossibility. When Jesus called Himself the "Son of God" He is saying that He is God. You cannot be equal with God, but not be God.

I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

(Isaiah 43:11)

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

(Isaiah 44:6)

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

(Isaiah 44:8)

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

(Isaiah 45:5-6)

God says that He alone is God, and NO ONE else occupies that space. He stands alone in that capacity. Notice that in Isaiah 44:6, God says that He calls Himself a redeemer, AND that He is the "first and the last." Notice that Jesus said about Himself: Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

(Revelation 1:11)

Jesus could not say that He is the First and the Last, if He were not true God. God will not share His titles with ANYONE. Therefore for Jesus to allowed to use that title, indicates that He is God as much as the Father.

Lets read some more:

I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

(Isaiah 43:11)

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.

(Isaiah 45:21)

Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no savior beside me.

(Hosea 13:4)

Now God says that there is no Savior other than Him. He has no equal in this respect. No one can save, except God. Yet we read in the New Testament:

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

(Matthew 1:21)

For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

(Matthew 18:11)

For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

(Luke 9:56)

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

(Luke 19:10)

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

(John 12:47)

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

(Acts 4:12)

God is the only Savior, and will not share that glory with anyone else. There is no way that Jesus could be the Savior, and not be God. He is not the Father, but He is God, and He is just as much God, as the Father.

Notice also in Isaiah what God says:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

(Isaiah 9:6)

This is descriptive of Jesus. Notice two things: He is called "El Gibor" or "Mighty God." This is accompanied by a definite article, which translates as "the." Meaning that this child is THE Mighty God. It is a specific person being identified. There is only ONE God who qualifies as "THE Mighty God." He is the God of the Bible.

Also note, that this child is also called "Avi ad" or Everlasting Father. A better translation from Hebrew would be "the Father of eternity." In other words, he is the originator, or initiator of eternity. It does not mean "Father" in a paternal sense. It is not saying that Jesus is the Father. It is saying that Jesus is the architect, or the chief of eternity, the Author of the ages. It is the same concept expressed by the Apostle Paul in Colossians when it says that Jesus was the "first born" of all creation. It is a title indicating Jesus as the head or chief of creation. "First born" is a title of pre-eminence, it is not saying that Jesus was created. So what we have in Isaiah is a picture of Jesus as the Mighty God who is the author of creation. That is why Jesus, like God the Father, can say, "I am the first and the last." Jesus was was the "Word" that was with God, and was/is God. Jesus is just as much "God" as the Father.

Amen.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me.

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour.

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am He; I am the first, I also am the last.

Know and believe and understand that He is

[Iryssa]

Sorry this took me so long...my roommate came home and we got to talking...you know how it is. Anyway, just a couple brief points.

The sign of the dove was a sign for John, I do not believe it was witnessed by all.

I don't see any evidence for this in the text.

For the sake of ease due to my time constraints allow me to submit another

[Iryssa]

whoops...dunno what happened there...somehow the post got posted before I could write it

Anyway...let's try that again *goes back to edit the post*

[Guest NewPilgrim]

My intent was to state that Yeshua, emptying himself, made himself subject to the same physical and spiritual limitations as man has due to his fallen state.

Prove it.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

HIS OWN AUTHORITY RESTORED:

Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

Dan 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions,

And behold, One like the Son of Man,

Coming with the clouds of heaven!

He came to the Ancient of Days,

And they brought Him near before Him.

14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,

That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.

His dominion is an everlasting dominion,

Which shall not pass away,

And His kingdom the one

Which shall not be destroyed."

or perhaps . . . or perhaps . . . or perhaps . . . or perhaps . . . or perhaps . . .

an unqualified retort, since I gave scripture to support my view, whilst yours was based on specualtion.

It is not a matter of inserting anything, it is a matter of recognizing the text to be a summary.

A summary is a brief description of events, no? The absence of any mention to the dominion of angels over the earth before its "reforming" and the introduction af plants, animals and man is more suggestive that they never had such dominion, more suggestive than that it did happen.

For if the four Gospels cannot record all that Jesus did while upon the earth, and as John testified,

Edited January 24, 2006 by NewPilgrim

[RGR]

Therefore, I personally don't believe that anyone who believes, as Jimmy Swaggart did, that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are completely seperate and distinct is really what I would call a "Trinitarian," (that sounds more like polytheism to me) since the word "Trinity" does not just carry the implication of threeness but also of oneness. I should've been more specific, I guess...

Are we sure that it's Swaggart and not Benny Hinn? Hinn taught that (or something similar) and when questioned, backed off of it and said he was joking. I used to watch Bro. Swaggart (yes I believe he's still a brother, btw) years back and I never heard him espouse that belief.

[BlindSeeker]

My intent was to state that Yeshua, emptying himself, made himself subject to the same physical and spiritual limitations as man has due to his fallen state.

Prove it.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

HIS OWN AUTHORITY RESTORED:

Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

Dan 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions,

And behold, One like the Son of Man,

Coming with the clouds of heaven!

He came to the Ancient of Days,

And they brought Him near before Him.

14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,

That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.

His dominion is an everlasting dominion,

Which shall not pass away,

And His kingdom the one

Which shall not be destroyed."

None of these verses prove what you originally stated, that Jesus had the same spiritual limitations as fallen man.

Nor is your statement about His authority being

Edited January 24, 2006 by BlindSeeker

[EricH]

Sorry this took me so long...my roommate came home and we got to talking...you know how it is. Anyway, just a couple brief points.

I am a guy. I never just get to talking. My wife has to drag it out of me

[Brother Chad]

Is God the Father not a "Holy Spirit"?

Did Jesus say "The Father and I are one"?

Both answers are yes and thus we see that Jesus is God the Father manifested in flesh and so are both the Holy Spirit. You do not need to have three persons in the Godhead to accomplish what God did in the Bible. He showed Himself to us in different ways to do His work. Very simple!