Gerioke Posted January 21, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,850 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/11/1911 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Let me get to my first question, one that has kept me from most religions all my life: "Where does God come from?" No one knows...and thats the plain simple truth as I see it...I have read the Bible a fair few times in my life as have most christians....and IMHO I see nowhere in the Bible where its says or indicates where God comes from. John 7 42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratio Posted January 21, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 8 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 21, 2006 (edited) "Where does God come from?" Habakkuk 3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise. The problem for us humans is our reference point. Any really understandable answer must be couched in a simile because we have little and often no real point of reference. That's why Jesus would actually ponder out loud on how to best convey a thought by using something similar as a point of reference. The verse above might as well say God came from New Jersey (as far as how helpful it is in answering your question), for anyone reading this KNOWS that God came from way before there was a Teman, or an Earth for that matter. Mark 4:30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? A fairly simple example might be how difficult it is to describe what sunlight looks like to a person that was born totally blind. This person can feel the heat as the sunlight lands on their face, and can feel the coolness setting in when the sun is under a cloud or as sunset occurs, but what does it look like? Most people that are not Christians still know there is something or someone out there, beyond our view, beyond our other senses, but they don't know who or what. Luke 7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like? Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: Matthew 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: Matthew 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. So Jesus would use similes to try to convey some primitave or basic aspect of something that He obviously understood on a far deeper level. Our school teachers do this in the early grades, before teenage years happen and the student now knows all things , like I thought I did when I hit that age. Many great truths of science that men of deep thought have eventually proven orginated as wild, unimaginable theories that the vast majority of other great thinkers just KNEW were stupid ideas. Turns out that the Earth revolves around the Sun! Sounds funny now, but not so many centuries ago, you could wind up in prison or even put to death for such great foolishness. [but I would genuinly like to know what makes 'you people' tick.] What an honest and open statement. We are in love with Jesus, till you are, you are not. Let me first say, sorry for double posting ... it's hard to keep up with all the answers Well, Jesus wasn't the only person/prophet with a seemingly deeper understanding. Muhammad and Buddha (Siddharta Gautama) and others appeared to have the same level of deep understanding. The Sun revolving around the earth is a good example I'd like to pick up on. This idea did not originate from scientific methods. People merely thought they were the pinnacle of the universe, thus it would be natural for the earth to be the center of the universe. This idea wasn't scientifically stupid, it was theologically stupid. A good example for the advantage of science over filling scientific gaps with theology. Edited January 21, 2006 by Ratio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagoburbite Posted January 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 418 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1965 Share Posted January 21, 2006 (edited) Hi there Ratio, I believe you missed AnotherTraveler's point (or else, I missed it, but it brought on a thought of my own). AT brought up a blind person. Being that I'm a sign language interpreter who studied deafness and sound, I have another example. Hope I don't ramble too much.....lol.... When you consider that we humans only use a small percentage of our brains, you must admit that we are limited by our ability to process information. In our minds, we try to make sense of things that are beyond our comprehesion, but we must accept them as true because there is evidence to show it. Now to my example... Most deaf people have some tiny amount of residual hearing. Meaning, they might not be able to hear someone speaking, but if a jet flew closely overhead, they could respond. However, there are some deaf people who are born without a cochlea, or some other part of the ear, and they have no residual hearing. So, if "John" was your friend who was born without residual hearing. How would you discribe the sound of a bell? a baby's cry? a jet? We could show evidence: a decibel meter, or vibrations off of an audio speaker. But those things are just effects. Evidence. How can you discribe specific sounds in words that actually could replace the true sound itself? So, as earthly beings with limited abilities due to our limited brains, and limited language, it makes it almost impossible to sum up in words, something that is so powerful, and not tangible, YET still there! I have many thoughts on this. But maybe you can chew this one over first lol And, btw, welcome to worthychat!! Jenni Edited January 21, 2006 by chicagoburbite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bread_of_Life Posted January 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 872 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/17/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/24/1981 Share Posted January 21, 2006 God is the thing that has to exist without a cause. In other words, he didn't "come" from anywhere - he is impossible to account for - he had no antecendant, no causation. He was the beginning of everything, the prime mover. It is senseless asking where he came from. Of course, God didn't *have* to be the first cause. Just so happens he was. Happy? N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishcowboy Posted January 21, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 127 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,248 Content Per Day: 0.88 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/23/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2006 to answer your first question, will have to ask a question, Exactly How Old Are You. this also is a question that is impossible to answer, for do you know the exact milisecond that you were conceived? and to figure out how old you are from that point on, by the time you figured the answser it would be wrong. to answer your second question, in order to know there is God one first would have to have some revelation to Him. As with Paul, He seen Jesus. Others throughout history have seen Jesus. Even Thomas knew Jesus, had even walked with Him when He walked this earth, but did not know what was writen was all about, so when Christ had risen from the grave, Thomas did not believe, even after many others had already testified to him about Christ. there are even sightings these days of Christ coming to people, as well as the angels, being used as messangers and escorts.... a 7 year old boy was pulled from a swimming pool by the hand of Jesus, when the boy was standing on the side of the pool having just seen a hand which he reached for, and there was no one else around the pool when this happened....... others have seen angelic beings standing behind a surgeon while the surgeon was operating on a person, guiding the hands of the surgeon....... there have been other physical manifistations..... many of them..... even Christ, Himself let us know that even with all these signs and wonders, people will be scoffers, will not believe..... trying to explain why something happens is not all that easy if a person wanting the answer does not want to know the truth...... you see, Saul thought he was doing the right thing, he thought he was "all that" and he was, as far as the sanhedrien were concerned, he was out killing all those that were witnessing Christ, Saul was even there when Stephen was about to be stoned, when Stephen looked up and seen the Heavens open and seen Christ Standing.....(very significant reason he was standing, instead of sitting) Standing at the right Hand of the Father.... Saul was there...... a witness to this event.... then later Saul, met Christ in person, and from that point on, he was known as Paul, and his work changed. in another thread, that was posted, about Mocking God..... you may find it a bit interesting. These were not the only ones to mock God and find death in short order, but there were two in the Bible that also found death the same way, and that was a man and wife, who sold everything, and kept a portion for themselves and then lied to God about it..... God already knew what they had kept. anyways..... no matter what anyone puts before you, it will not be them that help you find out who God really is, it is the Holy Spirit that will reach out to your heart and open your eyes to the truth. a young man i know, did everything he could to go against his parents and God, and this past May, while higher then a kite, a three day high, on meth, was zoning out, could not sleep, still high, and the Lord God came to him and told him, if he did not stop using that stuff and follow Him, that he was going to die, this man hit the ground on his knees and was sobered up instantly, giving his life to the Lord, he has been in constant study ever since.... living his life for the Lord.... this young man has even had most of his mind restored to full use, and it is healing more every day..... God is real. if only a person would not ignore Him..... God speaks to people today, many people have heard his voice, most ignore His voice and go about things their own way, the way of man.... even I have done that, and when i do things my way, they do not work out..... Yesterday, a young man was working out of doors, and it started to rain, like in pouring down, he looked up and commanded the rain to stop in the Name of Jesus, the Son of the Living God. and it stopped faster then it had started..... I seen that one happen. too many healings have been done by those following Christ, and worshipping God, living their lives for God. i have witnessed many. mike (note: this was written prior to 8:30 am, but due a customer having a pipe break, i was unable to post it prior to now...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted January 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2006 (edited) Ratio, For those of us who are Christians, we believe in God not based on logic and reason because even though those things can grasp evidences for God's existance, they will never satisfy us enough. Paul, in Romans tell us that God has provided great evidence for us believing in Him through the creation itself and through our own conscience. However, as Paul also writes, real knowledge of him in this way is blocked by sin. Further the concept of eternality versus time is somewhat beyond our ability to understand. Augustine in his classic work Confessions written in the 4th century attempted to understand time in one chapter and his ideas are very interesting. Certainly God is not constrained by time and space. Although I could sit here and write for hours to you about trying to know and understand God and why it is not possible in the ways you are seeking, the important thing about God from the Christian perspective is that God sent His only Begotten in the form of a man not only so that we could know Him but so that we might also have eternal life, in spite of our sin, by believing in Him. In other words, we know God through his written word, the Bible, but also through the living Word, God's Son, Jesus Christ. God and man meet at the cross of Jesus. Anything else from our perspective cannot be trusted and is just pure speculation. You seem fairly intelligent and honest in your questions. At this point I would really recommend you read something like Augustine's Confessions. It is an interesting and revealing sort of autobiography of not only one of the most brilliant men in human history but also one of the most brilliant men in the history of Christ's church and his journey from unbelief to faith. Truly you will not find God in logic and reason. He simply will not be known in that way. God calls himself in the Bible the Alpha and the Omega. He has no beginning and no end. He also calls Himself "the great I am". Not I was or I have been but I am. Hard to understand but still true. His creation he created "ex-nihlo", out of nothing. All that we see and experience was created from His hand out of nothing. In the same way He creates faith in His Son in our sinful unbelieving hearts out of nothing. Repent and believe dear soul. Blessings, SW Edited January 21, 2006 by st. Worm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymba22 Posted January 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 588 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/14/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/06/1967 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Let me get to my first question, one that has kept me from most religions all my life: "Where does God come from?" No one knows...and thats the plain simple truth as I see it...I have read the Bible a fair few times in my life as have most christians....and IMHO I see nowhere in the Bible where its says or indicates where God comes from. John 7 42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? The question was about GOd not the Christ....the question asked about a specific part of triune GOd, so that is how I answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymba22 Posted January 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 588 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/14/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/06/1967 Share Posted January 21, 2006 and they tend to prize themselves for their Faith way before they prize Reason. thats like saying all western people ride horses...dont fit me into a box of your making...your quite wrong,read my answer to him you will find i did the opposite of what you claim. I hope I got that right for you Christians out there. if you were being serious...then I pity you...if you were being sarcastic I pity you even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted January 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2006 "So, technically, we'll do better here because of knowledge and they'll do better with more and more Faith and getting pay-offs from God for having that Faith." Nothing wrong with logic and reason. BAatheist. I think I am pretty good at both. You can even use them as an apologetic tool but only up to a point. Further saving faith for a Christian, even though many Christians do not really understand this, is a gift from God. Faith cannot be self-generated. BTW, I assume you believe it is wrong for someone to steal from you or kill you as I also hope you know it is wrong to do to others. Now I have a question you for. Is that a function of reason. faith or something else? How do you know it is wrong to do these things? I have a good reason for asking so please play along. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagoburbite Posted January 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 418 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1965 Share Posted January 21, 2006 (edited) HI again, Matt. Please read my answer above. You are looking for us to explain something that can not be put into words. As I gave the example, you can not discribe a color to a blind person, or sound to a deaf person who has no residual hearing. You can BEGIN and TRY to explain it, but you will always fall short of a perfect response. You are asking us to tell you what the color blue smells like (as I read somewhere). It's not a plausible question to answer. Jenni Edited January 21, 2006 by chicagoburbite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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