An honest question

[Ratio]

Hello,

Let me be straightfoward: I'm an atheist and despite years of christian schooling, I have always been rather skeptical about Christianity and other religions. I would consider myself a fair person and debater, so I think it would be great if we could discuss theological questions in a fair manner (none of the "You're going to hell!" or equal "You're a stupid Christian" stuff). I'm certain there have been plenty of predecessors that have tried this, but I would genuinly like to know what makes 'you people' tick.

Let me get to my first question, one that has kept me from most religions all my life: "Where does God come from?"

I know the ad hoc Christian counter-argument is: "God is eternal, therefore he has no beginning."

To me, that doesn't answer the question. Although eternal things would indeed not have a beginning per se, this is really only a temporal argument. My question is really "Where does, what God consists of, come from?". I know there are many different Christian views on the nature of God. From the Mormon idea, that God is a being of 'flesh and blood' to the moderate idea, that God is energy, spirit, ... or something around those lines. But I think, even amongst different confessions, there can be little doubt that God consists of something (whatever that might be). So where does that come from.

You might ask me "Where does the universe come from". My answer is I don't know. The Christian answer doesn't have much appeal, because, to me, it's a contradictory argument:

1) Where does everything come from? It can't come from nowhere.

2) God created everything, he came from nowhere.

I ask that nobody be offended by my thoughts, I'm not trying to win one over for the 'other side'. I'm just interested how a Christian 'overrides' this paradox. If you have any questions concerning atheism, feel free to ask. I'll do my best to give a coherent answer.

[kittylover0991]

Hey Ratio,

Thankyou so much for posting Please let me be the first to say that I may not be able to give the "theoological" answer to your question. Let me say first, I dont' know what "God is made of" and I don't know "Where he comes from". I just know that the bible says "In the beginning was the word, and the word was God, and the Word was with God." I don't know waht he looks like. I know he isn't flesh and blood like the Mormons say. I know that Jesus left heaven to come to a sinful world below in the form of flesh and blood to die for sinners.

I can't tell really tell you how I believe what I believe and I can't really tell you why. I can't tell you that I know why we were created. However, somehow.. I was taught this thing called faith. The bible says it is substance of things hoped for.. the evidence of things not seen. I haven't seen God himself, heard and audible voice, or know of an answer that will satisfy your wandering mind. I do, however, know.. somehow.. that God exists. It is something in my heart since that day I first heard of his love. I can't explain it well as it is love I cannot comprehend myself. When I see him in heaven... I know it is then I will fully understand for the first time.

However, the "proof" of his existence is all around. Look at what Emerson wrote about nature. The awe he wrote about his youth coming back to him.. how he had seen with a "transparent eye". Nature is somethign we see all around that just engulfs us in its beauty. My dad has always told me stories about his youth when he watched the sun rising over the grand canyon. No, my dad does not believe in God as far as I know of.

It is a mystery I guess. I can't explain how the human eye works.. how complex it is that scientists cannot duplicate it... how the growth of a flower is so miraculous. I am sorry I am not making any sense as I often times find, however, there is one thing I know. That one thing is that it is all from God.

I only know it because of faith. There is not other explanations to your questions, as I am soryr to say. If there was some way I could take you back in time and give you the answer, I would. But I can't. The bible is the only book with the answers. I can honestly say that the bible has an answer to every question to every situation. I hope you find the answer to your questions.

With sisterly love in Christ Jesus,

Crystal

[Ratio]

Hey Ratio,

Thankyou so much for posting Please let me be the first to say that I may not be able to give the "theoological" answer to your question. Let me say first, I dont' know what "God is made of" and I don't know "Where he comes from". I just know that the bible says "In the beginning was the word, and the word was God, and the Word was with God." I don't know waht he looks like. I know he isn't flesh and blood like the Mormons say. I know that Jesus left heaven to come to a sinful world below in the form of flesh and blood to die for sinners.

I can't tell really tell you how I believe what I believe and I can't really tell you why. I can't tell you that I know why we were created. However, somehow.. I was taught this thing called faith. The bible says it is substance of things hoped for.. the evidence of things not seen. I haven't seen God himself, heard and audible voice, or know of an answer that will satisfy your wandering mind. I do, however, know.. somehow.. that God exists. It is something in my heart since that day I first heard of his love. I can't explain it well as it is love I cannot comprehend myself. When I see him in heaven... I know it is then I will fully understand for the first time.

However, the "proof" of his existence is all around. Look at what Emerson wrote about nature. The awe he wrote about his youth coming back to him.. how he had seen with a "transparent eye". Nature is somethign we see all around that just engulfs us in its beauty. My dad has always told me stories about his youth when he watched the sun rising over the grand canyon. No, my dad does not believe in God as far as I know of.

It is a mystery I guess. I can't explain how the human eye works.. how complex it is that scientists cannot duplicate it... how the growth of a flower is so miraculous. I am sorry I am not making any sense as I often times find, however, there is one thing I know. That one thing is that it is all from God.

I only know it because of faith. There is not other explanations to your questions, as I am soryr to say. If there was some way I could take you back in time and give you the answer, I would. But I can't. The bible is the only book with the answers. I can honestly say that the bible has an answer to every question to every situation. I hope you find the answer to your questions.

With sisterly love in Christ Jesus,

Crystal

Thank you for that answer. I see your point about faith. After all, all throughout history people have believed in God(s) and other supernatural things to explain that which they do not know. I could even go as far as to say, that faith is a part of humanity (or so it seems). However I have two problems with the concept of faith.

1) Why can't one be satisfied with not knowing the answer to a yet unanswered question.

2) There is little orientation for faith. By that I mean, that since there is no rational or evidential evidence for the answers offered (whatever they might be), how can you choose one faith over the other? The same question, asked differently: How do you know your faith is correct and all others wrong (or at least flawed), when others think the same of you?

[IslandRose]

Moved to the Outer Court for discussion.

[cymba22]

Let me get to my first question, one that has kept me from most religions all my life: "Where does God come from?"

No one knows...and thats the plain simple truth as I see it...I have read the Bible a fair few times in my life as have most christians....and IMHO I see nowhere in the Bible where its says or indicates where God comes from.

[bgoalie35]

Hey Ratio,

Thankyou so much for posting Please let me be the first to say that I may not be able to give the "theoological" answer to your question. Let me say first, I dont' know what "God is made of" and I don't know "Where he comes from". I just know that the bible says "In the beginning was the word, and the word was God, and the Word was with God." I don't know waht he looks like. I know he isn't flesh and blood like the Mormons say. I know that Jesus left heaven to come to a sinful world below in the form of flesh and blood to die for sinners.

I can't tell really tell you how I believe what I believe and I can't really tell you why. I can't tell you that I know why we were created. However, somehow.. I was taught this thing called faith. The bible says it is substance of things hoped for.. the evidence of things not seen. I haven't seen God himself, heard and audible voice, or know of an answer that will satisfy your wandering mind. I do, however, know.. somehow.. that God exists. It is something in my heart since that day I first heard of his love. I can't explain it well as it is love I cannot comprehend myself. When I see him in heaven... I know it is then I will fully understand for the first time.

However, the "proof" of his existence is all around. Look at what Emerson wrote about nature. The awe he wrote about his youth coming back to him.. how he had seen with a "transparent eye". Nature is somethign we see all around that just engulfs us in its beauty. My dad has always told me stories about his youth when he watched the sun rising over the grand canyon. No, my dad does not believe in God as far as I know of.

It is a mystery I guess. I can't explain how the human eye works.. how complex it is that scientists cannot duplicate it... how the growth of a flower is so miraculous. I am sorry I am not making any sense as I often times find, however, there is one thing I know. That one thing is that it is all from God.

I only know it because of faith. There is not other explanations to your questions, as I am soryr to say. If there was some way I could take you back in time and give you the answer, I would. But I can't. The bible is the only book with the answers. I can honestly say that the bible has an answer to every question to every situation. I hope you find the answer to your questions.

With sisterly love in Christ Jesus,

Crystal

Thank you for that answer. I see your point about faith. After all, all throughout history people have believed in God(s) and other supernatural things to explain that which they do not know. I could even go as far as to say, that faith is a part of humanity (or so it seems). However I have two problems with the concept of faith.

1) Why can't one be satisfied with not knowing the answer to a yet unanswered question.

2) There is little orientation for faith. By that I mean, that since there is no rational or evidential evidence for the answers offered (whatever they might be), how can you choose one faith over the other? The same question, asked differently: How do you know your faith is correct and all others wrong (or at least flawed), when others think the same of you?

1.) I am satisfied with not knowing the answer. I don't know where God comes from, or how something exists outside of time. I do know from Einstein, though, that time is not absolute, which makes the idea that something could exist outside of time all the more likely to me. As a follow up, I do not know where the universe comes from either, but I accept its existence.

2.) Why have faith in Christianity as opposed to other religions? Because I studied the roots of where Christianity came from. Christianity is a historical religion based on the accounts of witnesses who claim to have seen something extraordinary. When studying all of the evidence, I believe these witnesses are trustworthy, even to their own torture and deaths. So, I believe what they claim.

Welcome to the site. I hope you find what you came here for.

[Leonard]

Good Morning, Ratio:

You're going to have to help me with reconciling these equations:

1. "I do not know where God comes from" = "I do not believe in Him."

2. "I do not know where the Universe comes from." = "I believe in it."

Given that A is never non-A, there appears to more going on here than just 'not believing' in God. Either you are not being honest with us about your reasons, or--more likely in my experience with professed Atheists--you're not being entirely honest with yourself.

Never fear, my boy; being entirely honest with yourself is the most difficult project in the universe, but affords one a rewarding journey of self-discovery.

What are you angry with God about?

[Ratio]

Hello,

Let me be straightfoward: I'm an atheist and despite years of christian schooling, I have always been rather skeptical about Christianity and other religions. I would consider myself a fair person and debater, so I think it would be great if we could discuss theological questions in a fair manner (none of the "You're going to hell!" or equal "You're a stupid Christian" stuff). I'm certain there have been plenty of predecessors that have tried this, but I would genuinly like to know what makes 'you people' tick.

Let me get to my first question, one that has kept me from most religions all my life: "Where does God come from?"

Your question is equating the temporal (non-eternal) concept of

[AnotherTraveler]

"Where does God come from?"

Habakkuk 3:3

God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

The problem for us humans is our reference point. Any really understandable answer must be couched in a simile because we have little and often no real point of reference. That's why Jesus would actually ponder out loud on how to best convey a thought by using something similar as a point of reference. The verse above might as well say God came from New Jersey (as far as how helpful it is in answering your question), for anyone reading this KNOWS that God came from way before there was a Teman, or an Earth for that matter.

Mark 4:30

And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?

A fairly simple example might be how difficult it is to describe what sunlight looks like to a person that was born totally blind. This person can feel the heat as the sunlight lands on their face, and can feel the coolness setting in when the sun is under a cloud or as sunset occurs, but what does it look like?

Most people that are not Christians still know there is something or someone out there, beyond our view, beyond our other senses, but they don't know who or what.

Luke 7:31

And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?

Matthew 7:24

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Matthew 7:26

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Matthew 11:16

But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

Matthew 13:24

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Matthew 18:23

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

So Jesus would use similes to try to convey some primitave or basic aspect of something that He obviously understood on a far deeper level. Our school teachers do this in the early grades, before teenage years happen and the student now knows all things , like I thought I did when I hit that age.

Many great truths of science that men of deep thought have eventually proven orginated as wild, unimaginable theories that the vast majority of other great thinkers just KNEW were stupid ideas. Turns out that the Earth revolves around the Sun! Sounds funny now, but not so many centuries ago, you could wind up in prison or even put to death for such great foolishness.

[but I would genuinly like to know what makes 'you people' tick.]

What an honest and open statement.

We are in love with Jesus, till you are, you are not.

[Ratio]

Good Morning, Ratio:

You're going to have to help me with reconciling these equations:

1. "I do not know where God comes from" = "I do not believe in Him."

2. "I do not know where the Universe comes from." = "I believe in it."

Given that A is never non-A, there appears to more going on here than just 'not believing' in God. Either you are not being honest with us about your reasons, or--more likely in my experience with professed Atheists--you're not being entirely honest with yourself.

Never fear, my boy; being entirely honest with yourself is the most difficult project in the universe, but affords one a rewarding journey of self-discovery.

What are you angry with God about?

I'm quite a happy chap, I'll let you know

I don't quite know what you're getting at... are you implying that I believe in the self creation of the universe? Or are you asking why I believe in the universe, rather than God?