Ovedya Posted February 3, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Greetings God is spirit and not flesh however the fullness of Him did appear in the flesh. As 7 is the number of completion so do the seven spirits of Isa.11:2 make up the complete likeness of God Isa.11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; These are the seven spirits and eyes of God. Through these seven spirits God as one is able to see all and do all. They are the "us" of Ge.1:26. It is a common misunderstanding that this is Jesus talking to God but we must remember that Jesus was a man that did not come into being until 4000 years later. However the spirit that gave Him life was from before the foundations of the earth so when Jesus says that as the Word (God's Word is Spirit) He was there in the beginning we can understand the difference between being present in spirit versus in flesh. A quick summarry of how "us" created man in the image is as follows. The spirt of council sought after knowledge and through understanding gained wisdom. Then with the spirit of might, the spirit of the Lord formed man from the earth as He took council of Himself (the "us"). There was a problem because Adam being formed of only good could not comprehend righteousness since he did not know evil. Some people have a hard time accepting the fact that the fall of man was part of the plan of God to fulfill the second part of His statement. God completed the image part and confirmed it by stating it twice (two is a witness) in the next verse however man coming into the "likeness" is the completion of the second part of that plan. Peace and Blessings Douglas I have many problms with these interpretations, not the least of which is the fact that not a single part of the concepts you outlines here are found anywhere in the Bible! So I would ask you this simply: Is God limited by linear time, and is God linear in thought? And then I want to address the heretical remark you made about the fall and God's plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcompugeek Posted February 3, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 30 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/30/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3, 2006 This discussion is just another trinity discussion! The "we" and "our" quotes are often used to support the Mormon belief of polytheism. As for me, I'm not a polytheist. Jesus Christ rules my house and Jesus is not three bodies, three minds or three personalities. The bread and wine in the holy supper support the fact that God has two things that he offers of Himself, good that can enter your will and cause you to be charitable and truth the can enter your understanding and cause you to have faith. These two things are the plural ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller Posted February 3, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 827 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 12,101 Content Per Day: 1.50 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 3 Joined: 04/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3, 2006 I started reading through Genesis again and I keep coming across this "we". I have heard people discuss this issue, but I have no true idea of what that is talking about. I used to just pass over it when I read it thinking it was God. What does it mean? Verses like these? (Genesis 1:26) Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (Genesis 3:22) Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." (Genesis 11:7) "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." I believe it Is God showing his plurality for us to know he God is 3 persons yet only one God. Greetings God is spirit and not flesh however the fullness of Him did appear in the flesh. As 7 is the number of completion so do the seven spirits of Isa.11:2 make up the complete likeness of God Isa.11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; These are the seven spirits and eyes of God. Through these seven spirits God as one is able to see all and do all. They are the "us" of Ge.1:26. It is a common misunderstanding that this is Jesus talking to God but we must remember that Jesus was a man that did not come into being until 4000 years later. However the spirit that gave Him life was from before the foundations of the earth so when Jesus says that as the Word (God's Word is Spirit) He was there in the beginning we can understand the difference between being present in spirit versus in flesh. A quick summarry of how "us" created man in the image is as follows. The spirt of council sought after knowledge and through understanding gained wisdom. Then with the spirit of might, the spirit of the Lord formed man from the earth as He took council of Himself (the "us"). There was a problem because Adam being formed of only good could not comprehend righteousness since he did not know evil. Some people have a hard time accepting the fact that the fall of man was part of the plan of God to fulfill the second part of His statement. God completed the image part and confirmed it by stating it twice (two is a witness) in the next verse however man coming into the "likeness" is the completion of the second part of that plan. Peace and Blessings Douglas 4000 years later? I think not. John 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not *comprehend it. John's Witness: The True Light 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That *was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His *own, and His *own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. The Word Becomes Flesh 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.'" 16 *And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten *Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catsmeow Posted February 3, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 439 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 7,315 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 356 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3, 2006 4000 years later? I think not. John 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not *comprehend it. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. Says it all.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcompugeek Posted February 4, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 30 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/30/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 4, 2006 The Word (or the truth) did become flesh. God considers the Love (represented by heat) and the Truth (represented by light) to both be alive. As the sun has heat and light together, so does God have Love and Truth together. These things may be discussed as seperate (and even seen as seperate like the morning star) but they are perfectly together like in the Sun. Christ called himself the bright morning star - the light (or truth) seen seperately from the heat (or love). This is why Christ went back to the Father (the love). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livelystone Posted February 4, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 8 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/03/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 4, 2006 The Word (or the truth) did become flesh. God considers the Love (represented by heat) and the Truth (represented by light) to both be alive. As the sun has heat and light together, so does God have Love and Truth together. These things may be discussed as seperate (and even seen as seperate like the morning star) but they are perfectly together like in the Sun. Christ called himself the bright morning star - the light (or truth) seen seperately from the heat (or love). This is why Christ went back to the Father (the love). Amen He took the body of a man back with Him by making it acceptable so that we could approach the throne of grace with confidence. Peace and Blessings Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted February 4, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 276 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 7,474 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1966 Share Posted February 4, 2006 t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livelystone Posted February 4, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 8 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/03/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 4, 2006 I have many problms with these interpretations, not the least of which is the fact that not a single part of the concepts you outlines here are found anywhere in the Bible! So I would ask you this simply: Is God limited by linear time, and is God linear in thought? And then I want to address the heretical remark you made about the fall and God's plan. Probably the best place to start would be for you to understand just what God said in Ge.1:26,27 and so I will quote them again Ge.1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Just so that there is no misunderstanding let us also quote the life giving process given to man in the second chapter Ge.2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. God is spirit and when he breathed into Adam, Adam received life and became a living soul. The earth that Adam was formed of was before the curse and the Bible says that all was good so we see Adam made from all things righteous. While Adam remained in that state he worked as a son of God and God worked through him. We have an example of that when Adam named the animals as they lined up for him. Not even the apostles could do that. Only Jesus who was the only other Son of God (singular) in the Bible could do that and gave evidence of it. The fulness of God was upon Jesus and that fulness is what I quoted in Isa.11:2. However the fear of the Lord and the beginning of wisdom is to hate evil (those are facts of scripture) but Adam did not know evil until the fall. God has not desired robots for sons and us learning to choose the good was part of the original plan of God and stated so in Ge. 1:26. Man is made in three parts and they are spirit, body and soul. Spirit is life and God is spirit. God made man in his image when he breathed into (inserted himself) Adam so we can see where the life given to Adam was from God. Man is spirit in a earthsuit (body) so to speak. In the NT we see James giving evidence to that with the statement "the body without the spirit is dead" and Job talked about how "he" was clothed with skin and bones. In that case the "he" is the life in Job (the spirit and the soul that personified it) In verse 27 God stated twice that man was made in the image of God and this is the first time that the law for determining truth is used in the Bible (two is a witness). God did not say that man had been made in the fulness and that would have included the likeness had it happened. The "likeness" part is what is quoted from Isa.11:2. The fact that God said that man would come to be in the likeness of Him is the purpose stated and it will happen at some point in time. Jesus being in the fullness had both the image and likeness and is an example for us. Adam could not understand righteousness until he experienced evil because it takes them both to understand each other. (One compares temperature by hot or cold). We are all descended from Adam through the fallen spirit that he has passed onto all of man that gives us life and it is this spirit that needs to be cast out and replaced with one from above. When you accept Jesus that is just what happened and through the Holy Spirit man can once again understand and hear the things of God. The verses in Ge.1:26,27 are the perimeters that establishes God's plan for man in a manner that we can understand and learn and that is for us to come into His Likeness. That is why the plan for us coming to glory (His Likeness) included Adam falling. It has happened for us to learn from so that we too can learn righteousness. Peace and Blessings Douglas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 Isa.11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; These are the seven spirits and eyes of God. Through these seven spirits God as one is able to see all and do all. I am sorry but this is nonsense. Isaiah is talking about the Holy Spirit and the role He would play in the life of Jesus. The Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of wisdom and understanding." This was clearly seen in the way Jesus was able to debate the scholars and Pharisees. It was seen in his teachings and in the way managed to escape the intellectual traps the Pharisees tried to lay in order to trip Him up in His words. The Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of counsel and might." This speaks to Jesus' authority being present in His teachings. While the Rabbis spoke "in the name of" this or that Rabbi, Jesus said, "You have read... but I say." It also speaks to Jesus' might over demons, sickness, and disease. Even at the tomb of His friend Lazarus, death bowed the knee to the King of the ages and relinquished the deceased man at Jesus' command. The Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of knowledge and fear of the Lord." Jesus had intimate knowledge of His Father, and His attributes. While no one has seen God at anytime, Jesus had revealed the Father to mankind as went about doing the works of the Father. This also speaks of Jesus' piety, of his reverence for the commandments of His Father. Jesus' life was spent with obedience to His Father as His overriding agenda. Jesus, as the Son of God, only wanted what pleased and glorified the Heavenly Father. Would that we would all have that as our agenda, as well. I don't have time to address the rest of the misinformation in that post. There is something to be said for sound exegesis of Scripture. I suggest you learn about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livelystone Posted February 4, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 8 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/03/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 4, 2006 Isa.11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; These are the seven spirits and eyes of God. Through these seven spirits God as one is able to see all and do all. I am sorry but this is nonsense. Isaiah is talking about the Holy Spirit and the role He would play in the life of Jesus. The Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of wisdom and understanding." This was clearly seen in the way Jesus was able to debate the scholars and Pharisees. It was seen in his teachings and in the way managed to escape the intellectual traps the Pharisees tried to lay in order to trip Him up in His words. The Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of counsel and might." This speaks to Jesus' authority being present in His teachings. While the Rabbis spoke "in the name of" this or that Rabbi, Jesus said, "You have read... but I say." It also speaks to Jesus' might over demons, sickness, and disease. Even at the tomb of His friend Lazarus, death bowed the knee to the King of the ages and relinquished the deceased man at Jesus' command. The Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of knowledge and fear of the Lord." Jesus had intimate knowledge of His Father, and His attributes. While no one has seen God at anytime, Jesus had revealed the Father to mankind as went about doing the works of the Father. This also speaks of Jesus' piety, of his reverence for the commandments of His Father. Jesus' life was spent with obedience to His Father as His overriding agenda. Jesus, as the Son of God, only wanted what pleased and glorified the Heavenly Father. Would that we would all have that as our agenda, as well. I don't have time to address the rest of the misinformation in that post. There is something to be said for sound exegesis of Scripture. I suggest you learn about it. Dear Brother You are leaving out to many scriptures and that is keeping you from gaining understanding. There is but one Holy Spirit and God said "I AM" just as Jesus said I AM the beginning and the end. Consider the following verses Eph.4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. The fullness of God was upon Jesus and to take away any of Isa. 11:2 is not giving the same credit to Jesus that the various writers of the scriptures did. The final disposition for man is to be the plural of the following verse and is the hope of your calling spoken of above. 1Tim.6: 4That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Re.17: 14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. The Holy Spirit is a seed in your heart and needs to be watered with the pure water of the WORD and then you (we) can fulfill the prophecy spoken of in the 1st miracle of Jesus. Peace and Blessings Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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