st. Worm Posted February 5, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2006 "Are you saying that being good to one another doesn't matter to God?" Yes, the Law of love is not a remedy for sin. Unless you are saying your best good works are anything other than filthy rags. God is not pleased with us. He is pleased only with his Son. We are viewed as good by God only because he sees believers just as he sees Christ. Has nothing to do with our good works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted February 5, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2006 "The question was once posed to me Why are we held accountable for what Eve did? What's your (anyone's) take on that?" That's an interesting analogy by Pax but the truth is original sin cannot be explained sufficiently by reason. But on the other hand the fact that believers are counted perfectly righteous through faith in Christ cannot really be explained by reason either. For whatever reason humanity has this connection to the first Adam and his sin and also to the second Adam, our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus and His perfect holiness. Who can explain why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted February 5, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2006 "Are you saying that being good to one another doesn't matter to God?" Yes, the Law of love is not a remedy for sin. I asked What about Matthew 25:31-46? Luke 10:25-37? According to the former, the kingdom is the reward for love/charity/good deeds. According to the latter, loving God and love others as oneself are rewarded with eternal life. Is there some sort of distinction you've drawn between attaining eternal life/kingdom of God and having one's sin remedied? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pax Posted February 5, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 961 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2006 "Are you saying that being good to one another doesn't matter to God?" Yes, the Law of love is not a remedy for sin. I asked What about Matthew 25:31-46? Luke 10:25-37? According to the former, the kingdom is the reward for love/charity/good deeds. According to the latter, loving God and love others as oneself are rewarded with eternal life. Is there some sort of distinction you've drawn between attaining eternal life/kingdom of God and having one's sin remedied? C.S, You are definantly are on to something. Good works (deeds) are meritorius and we are promised by God to reward them with eternal life. Please look up (Romans 2: 6-7, Galatians 6:6-10). Good works, just like faith, is a key comoponent to salvation. A person must have both. This is the cornerstone of the Protestant Reformation led by Martin Luther. Luther wrote that we are all piles of Dung covered with snow. Nothing that we ever do will be enough to please God, so our only chance at salvation is through faith alone. This isn't what Chrisitanity had taught for the previous 1500 years after Christ had died and was resurrected. Luther struggeled with this idea that he wasn't good enough so he could only be saved by faith and that was it. He then translated his internal struggles into theology and thus we have salvation by faith alone. This idea of being saved by faith alone is also very dangerous. It gives a person the false idea that they can live a life however they want and as long as they believe in Jesus Christ and he died for out sins they are going to heaven. The Devil also believes that Jesus Christ died on the Cross and he knows why, however the Devil isn't working for God. Is the Devil going to be in heaven when this is all said and done? Nope Just something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted February 5, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2006 "According to the former, the kingdom is the reward for love/charity/good deeds. According to the latter, loving God and love others as oneself are rewarded with eternal life. Is there some sort of distinction you've drawn between attaining eternal life/kingdom of God and having one's sin remedied?" In my tradition, we take great pains to keep a clear distinction between the Law and the Gospel. The Gospel says God provides us entrance to Heaven only for the sake of His Son. Works are absolutely meaningless in that regard. When I say the Law is not a remedy for sin I mean doing the Law is of no value in appeasing God. Only the Gospel and Jesus do that. The idea of works being meritorious is certainly differently viewed by Protestants and RC's like Pax. RC's believe works are meritorious towards salvation but as Protestants we know the Bible teaches otherwise (sorry Pax!). Protestants believe that justfication is through faith alone in Christ. But we also believe that even though salvation is by faith alone, it is not a faith that is alone. It is a faith which gives rise to good works. However, unlike Catholics, we do not believe those works merit anything before God in terms of our salvation. RC's still haven't figured that out although Luther tried to school them in that regard (sorry again Pax ;-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 5, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 5, 2006 This idea of being saved by faith alone is also very dangerous. It gives a person the false idea that they can live a life however they want and as long as they believe in Jesus Christ and he died for out sins they are going to heaven. I recall an argument I had with a Catholic friend over this. She beleived as long as she was faithful to performing her sacraments, she was going to Heaven. I asked her if she'd ever repented of her sin and received Christ's death as the final sacrifice for her sin, and she said, "No." Slight problem here. I have a quesiton for you, Pax. If you do good to others so that you can get to Heaven, are not your good deeds based on selfishness? I have another question. If your works get you into Heaven, have you then not become your own god? After all, you got to Heaven on your own power, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 QUOTE(Pax @ Feb 5 2006, 11:15 AM) This idea of being saved by faith alone is also very dangerous. It gives a person the false idea that they can live a life however they want and as long as they believe in Jesus Christ and he died for out sins they are going to heaven. This demonstrates that you do not understand the gospel. We are not saved by faith alone, but are saved by Christ alone. We are not saved by our faith. We are saved by grace of God through faith. That grace was made available by Christ on the cross. Only by placing our faith in Jesus and the finished work on the cross can a person be born again. The gospel is not, "do as much good as you can to be worthy of salvation." The gospel is that your good works are as filthy rags before God. You are incapable of pleasing God on your own. You are miserable, sinful wretch who deserves nothing but God's utter contempt, and judgement, but God in His mercy, doesn't give you what you deserve. "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." "The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom. 3:23, Rom. 6:23) Salvation is a gift to be received, not a prize to won, or a wage to be earned. You cannot work your way into God's favor. You are saved by God's grace when you place your faith in Christ and his finished work upon the cross. Nothing else has any salvific effect. As far as living anyway you want... If you are born again, you have a new nature. You are a new creation according 2Cor. 5:17. You should have a new set of "wants." If that is not true, if you can still enjoy sin, and still live for the next sinful pleasure, then such a person should re-examine the authenticity of their profession of faith in Christ. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit empowers us and constrains us to live for Christ. True Christians are not looking for ways to sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted February 5, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2006 Why does it have to be "either/or?" Why can it not be both? I say this because, no matter how much a person denies Christ, they are still in the image of God, thus capable of some limited good. Though their motives may be wrong, the fact is, man is still capable of fulfilling certain aspects of God's image (taking care of others, being good, creating culture, etc) without having God. At the same time, being in a fallen state, that image is tainted, thus man is also prone to commit great acts of evil, destroy culture, and perform evil. Either way, we are not totally evil or totally good...we are simply geared towards both. only those who accept Christ, however, can gain the full image of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted February 5, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2006 "Only by placing our faith in Jesus and the finished work on the cross can a person be born again." Actually you have that reversed dear soul. We are born again and THEN we are able to believe and trust in Christ. As Jesus said when he chastised Nicodemus, you cannot even begin to see the Kingdom of Heaven unless you are first born again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branchesofHim Posted February 5, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 211 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,463 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 759 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/09/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/23/1966 Share Posted February 5, 2006 Are people born good or bad? Either.... Mankind is born evil and basically corrupt OR mankind's behavior is pure and evil is learned through his environment and contact with others. I could see it either way. anyone have any thoughts on the matter? Because of Adam's sin in the beginning, even newborn babies are born with sin in their hearts. That is why Jesus told us, "Except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." Everyone born since Adam is born into a fallen nature and must be born again of the Spirit of God to have their natures changed. And yes, mankind does learn corrupt behavior through his environment and contact with others. But he can't help it because he is full of sin already. Thanks be unto God for Jesus Christ's provision of salvation for us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts