The end result of eternal security

[endure4salvation]

I don't understand why people place 100% of the responsibility on God for our salvation when the Scriptures are so clear that we actually do play a part in our salvation.

These things are required for salvation:

1. Faith

2. Repentance

3. Perseverance

Why is it that some try to find a way around these obvious truths?

Denying the truth doesn't change it...

[godrulz]

HyperCalvinism defines sovereignty in an extreme way. There are verses for God's sovereignty and man's responsibilities as you rightly observe. As I said before, there is a distinction between the grounds of salvation (reason for which/God= grace, death/resurrection/atonement, etc.) and the conditions of salvation (not without which/man= repentance, faith, perseverence).

I and Endure seem to find clear Scriptural support for our view. I feel it is a preconceived theology with exclusive emphasis on only SOME of the relevant verses that leads to the other conclusion.

It is hard at the best of times to take off our 'theological glasses' (bias) to exegete Scripture. I trust over the years I have been able to weigh the evidence to come to a good understanding. If not, I want to be teachable and charitable in the mean time.

If man has no responsibility, why does God not save everyone? (no, it is not a mystery; that would be a misrepresentation of justice and love).

Let us work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

[sagz4Christ]

As I have stated before in several posts, I know that through the thoughts of this discussion, we are not going to change anyone's mind on the matter. If this thread was indeed meant in the spirit of "Christian Love," then it stands to reason that it would remain there. We would not bad-mouth or belittle the ther sides viewpoints. We would state our case and honestly try to see things from the other point of view. I have apologized, and have been forgiven (at least in word) by the two people I have fallen short pertaining to "Christian love." Now it is obvious to me that the intent of this thread is to push only one side of the argument and deem the oposing viewpoint as nothing short of heretical.

I take issue with this.

I don't understand why people place 100% of the responsibility on God for our salvation when the Scriptures are so clear that we actually do play a part in our salvation.

These things are required for salvation:

1. Faith

2. Repentance

3. Perseverance

Why is it that some try to find a way around these obvious truths?

Denying the truth doesn't change it...

I don't understand why some people want to deny the keeping power of God and His GRACE and insist on placing some of that power in their own feeble hands.

Perseverance is required not for salvation purposes, but for reward purposes. I can (and HAVE) shown Scripture to back this thought up.

Why is it that some people try to find ways around these obvious truths?

Denying the truth doesn't change it...

You see? I can say the same thing to you. I am trying to end this discussion because it is only aiding in tearing down the Body of Christ, not building it up. Let us agree to disagree and be done with it.

HyperCalvinism defines sovereignty in an extreme way.

Though I have openly disagreed with you, I have not called names. In no way have I even BEGAN to show the beliefs of HyperCalvinism. This statement is even contradictory to what I have been arguing. If you take the TULIP to the extreme, you will see that HyperCalvinism actually thinks that you cannot know for sure you are saved until you get to the judgment seat and God lets you know if you pass or fail. To say again, I disagree with your conditions of salvation as perseverence is not a condition, but an outward action of an inward act.

I have given many Scripture references to back up my view, and most of them have gone unquestioned, or ignored.

Man DOES have responsibility. I have not ONCE stated otherwise. Those words have been put in my mouth. We have a responsibility to answer the door when Jesus knocks. We have a responsibility to repent of our sins and hold fast to our faith that Christ's death and ressurection was SUFFICIENT payment for ALL our sins (past, present, future) and that He is able to keep us in Him to the end. Through our faith, God extends His grace, and THAT, my friends is what saves us. THAT is what keeps us. THAT gives us our assurance. Even our FAITH is given to us by God. Do you see our Total (not utter) depravity? Don't you see that this depravity forces us to rely on God, through Whom all things are made AND KEPT?

To put words in others' mouths, and to call into question others' ability to study Scripture is to not hold to the admonition given us by Paul in Ephesians 4:29-32

"Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. And do not greive the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you are SEALED FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you."

Now if I say that I have lived up to this statement, then I am a liar, and deserve no less than rebuking, but I am not only saying it for your benefit, but for mine as well.

If you will recall, when I got out of line, I apologized for it. I thought that I was forgiven and that bygones were to be just that....bygones. Now, to be honest, I don't know what I did to get on your bad side, but I would sure like to know so that I can be restored properly. I recall only being baffled that this doctrine was out there and trying to find out what it was all about.

After reading the past few weeks on the subject (from both sides), and seeing the directions this very thread has taken, I have come to the conclusion that most of the people that are of the thought of being able to lose salvation are for the most part, scoffers of the opposite view and unable/unwilling to extend even a thought to trying to understand it. I have heard people bash Clarles Stanley for teaching Eternal Security. I wonder if you realize that he actually used to believe what you do?

I will say this again, and only one more time. I apologize for any division I have caused and am willing to work at restoring fellowship within the board for any grief this post has caused. I have laid out my case and have heard the other side.....I don't agree, but as long as you are willing to agree that the way to heaven is through the cross of Christ, then I am able to extend the right hand of fellowship and lay this conversation to rest.

This opposition has existed far before any of us were here, and will outlive any of us who read the post. We need to stop bickering and get on with the business of our Father.....making disciples of all nations.

By His Blood;

~Sagz

[godrulz]

Sagz: I talk generically about the logical conclusions of a view held by many. I am sure there are permutations of the general Calvinistic view. I would not get defensive, since I am not trying to refute you per se. I am sharing an opinion about statements and usually do not look closely at who is posting them (as you can tell since I do not quote posts directly). I respect your view, but am trying to be faithful to Scripture knowing there are practical ramifications to an incorrect understanding of Bible themes.

Your heart and spirit is where we want to be in concluding our dialogue with all of us here. God bless.

[endure4salvation]

I don't deny the keeping power of Christ...I also don't deny the keeping power of the believer...

Jude 21

Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

1 John 2:24

Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us--eternal life.

According to John, it is also the believer's responsibility to remain in Christ, and the positive promises of God will not be reaped if conditions aren't met. And in this case, the promise is eternal life--the salvation that is thought by some to be unconditionally secure. There are scores of verses that place responsibility on the individual.

We need to find a common middle ground on which to rest, because it is obvious that the Absolute Truth lies somewhere inbetween. Be blessed of the Lord!!!

I am after the fullness of the Truth and will change what I believe when I need to based upon open-minded study in the Word through the Spirit.......can you say the same?

[godrulz]

Good point. Like so many concepts, it is not either/or but both/and (God and man).

I do not fully identify with Calvin, Arminius, or Pelagius. I think I am in the semi-Pelagian camp (the middle view suggested earlier)= we need God; we cannot save ourselves; we are not totally depraved to the point of having no ability. It is not an impossible hill to climb; it is not an easy hill to climb; it is a difficult hill to climb (physical vs total moral depravity).

[endure4salvation]

Remember, Jesus did tell us that it is hard to get to heaven.

(And compare our lifestyle to that of Jesus and you will have to agree that we ALL are rich)

[endure4salvation]

Please also don't forget that I used to believe in UES, but after praying hard for a very long time about certain verses and if it was possible to walk away from God, thereby forfeiting my salvation, I had absolutely no choice but to accept the conditional nature of our salvation.

But I absolutely still believe in the security of the believer (key word 'believer').

[Lanakila]

Good point. Like so many concepts, it is not either/or but both/and (God and man).

I do not fully identify with Calvin, Arminius, or Pelagius. I think I am in the semi-Pelagian camp (the middle view suggested earlier)= we need God; we cannot save ourselves; we are not totally depraved to the point of having no ability. It is not an impossible hill to climb; it is not an easy hill to climb; it is a difficult hill to climb (physical vs total moral depravity).

Hubby and I are are of the same view. That God saves us, when we believe and repent, no man can pluck us out of God's hands. But, and this is a big but, salvation is based upon faith, and if we no longer have faith, we are denying the very Lord who saved us, and apostacizing ourselves (Hebrew warning passages). I don't believe all sin separates us from God, but the sin of unbelief obviously does, or God wouldn't say so in the scriptures. In 1 Cor we are told to examine ourselves to see if we be in the faith. Look at that verse without the bias of eternal security (without condition) for just a moment. If we can are to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith, then we can be out. This is talking about the sin of unbelief, which leads to other sins. Frankly the sin of unbelief is what keeps unbelievers from heaven in the first place, and I personally after much study, believe its what takes a former Christian and makes an unbeliever out of them. Telling someone like this they were never saved in the first place is highly offensive to them by the way.

This is not simple backsliding folks, this is apastacy. It's extreme, but happens alot. The scripture teaches in Hebrews that those that have done this cannot be renewed again to salvation.

[Guest dove2]

I agree Lanakila.