The Church

[ElijahSK]

Repost topic at a later date.

Edited March 17, 2006 by ElijahSK

[buckthesystem]

The IRS (or the IRD or whatever the equivalent is in other countries, they're all the same) is an evil organisation. A government department full of parasitic bureaucrats that exists only to steal money and employ otherwise unemployeable people. It is sticking its evil fingers into everything, and the church is its latest victim.

The Bible tells us that we should not steal (or I guess, "demand money with menaces"). Demanding money with menaces is exactly what the IRS exists to do. Therefore, the church should have nothing whatsoever to do with the IRS. Period, end of story.

[apothanein kerdos]

1. A distinct legal existence (As the church in Corin, no, Thessolanica, no, Philippia, no, Lacodia, maybe depending on the book.)

2. A recognized creed and form of worship

3. A definite and distinct ecclesiastical government (This is responsible for the "five-fold" ministry as you know it today.)

4. A formal code of doctrine and discipline

5. A distinct religious history

6. A membership not associated with any other church or denomination (Not associated with? Paul wrote to the church in this and that city. Now we have this and that congregation of this and that "church")

7. An organization of ordained ministers (Ordained as seen by the IRS not the one in charge.)

8. Ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed studies (If a 501c3 coporation says that study is John 3:16 then you've completed it.)

9. A literature of its own (How about we stick to the Bible?)

10. Established places of worship (Not house to house? So this is why the Old Testament temple which was a figure of us the true church got turned into a building again.)

11. Regular congregations

12. Regular religious services

13. Sunday schools for religious instruction of the young (Father and Mother teach your children, or how about turn them over to someone who could be teaching them anything without your approval? No biblical bases for sunday school, good thing the IRS knew to include it.)

14. Schools for the preparation of its ministers. (No comment)

How does any of this violate the Bible?

Seems to me your'e simply trying to find something to complain about.

[Marnie]

I find myself agreeing with AK on this. I am no lover of government, and the IRS is atrocious. However, with all the fly-by-night "churches" out there, lead by men or women with no formal theological training I don't see anything wrong with some light regulation if a congregation wants to take advantage of the tax laws for religious organizations. But, if a group wants to call itself a "church," meet in house or a barn or whatever, they can call themselves and church and sidestep the government all together. Of course, they can't issue tax receipts, but there are some Christians who don't take advantage of that anyway.

[His Ambassador]

You're right Marnie. There is no law in the USA requiring a "church" to apply for tax exempt status. Churches do it in order to keep expenses down and to entice its members to give. However, I don't like the idea of the government being involved in the churches as they hold the tax-exempt status over the churches heads like with the recent directive that a church cannot support a candidate of political issue from the pulpit or the IRS will pull its tax-exempt status.

[Guest man]

The church shouldn't have tax exempt status. Too many opportunities for sin to creep in and distort the truth.

[Ovedya]

Saints, please be careful. As a moderator here I cannot condone any discussions that promote or encourage saints to break the law. If this discussion begins to trend that way then it will be removed immediately.

[Smalcald]

I think a church should really consider all of the ramifications of having or not having a tax-exempt status. If you start a congregation and that congregation puts any money forward at all, without tax exempt status you must then report all of that money as an income to this group either as personal income or as income for a business, either way the government is involved with you, either tax or not tax exempt.

I do think the government uses the tax exempt status issue as a hammer though, and can see the benefits of just organizing as a for-profit organization and paying the taxes on the income or profit.

I don't think a minister needs any degrees at all, although I think many ministers with degrees are also great and qualified. The bible says though they must be mature in the faith, NOT novices, meaning recent converts, they should be men, they should be family men, and their families should have good reputations to the outside world, they should also have a good reputation and no blemish to be used against the Church as a witness, they should not be heavy drinkers or given to wine as the bible says, they should also be the husbands of only one wife. This refers to polygamy, but I think it also applies to divorce.

But nothing a minister says should be a total surprise to a congregation, a minister should preach the bible and the doctrine of the congregation, NOT be out there inventing doctrine of his own, the congregation and doctrine of that congregation comes first, then comes the service of the minister to the Gospel, the congregation and the doctrine. Doctrine should never center on what minister you happen to choose, you should choose the minister, the minister should not be choosing who he wants to join him.

[Smalcald]

Hello Smallcald,

That is basically what I am saying. I think the church should simply form as a for profit business and pay their taxes. It is better to do that than have their right to free speech stepped on. I know of one group that sends people to differen't churches just to see if they are saying anything political. If they are, the group reports them to the IRS. I heard someone from that group interviewed on the Michael Medved Show. Why should we have to put up with such an intrusion? The person on the program even admitted that if a group has no tax exempt status, they are free to preach anything they like.

I also believe the prohibition concerning politics is only the beginning. If the government gets away with it in one area, they could next say we will lose our exemption for standing against homosexuals, abortion, or anything else. They could say we are guilty of hate speech. They might say we cannot allow groups like the boy scouts to use our buildings. To me, we would be better off to simply voluntarily give up this tax exempt status, even though we will have to pay taxes.

Yup I totally agree.

I think this is the nose of the camel so to speak getting under our tent. Let them have the rotten taxes as Christ said give to Caesar what is his. Personally I think that even if we start to organize as taxable organizations they (the pc police, so called "progressives" and the government) will still find ways to try to limit what we say, and more importantly control us, basically they want some level of control over the Church. They know that the true balance to their power is the Church speaking the truth.

Now, consider why churches would cling so strongly to this tax-exempt status? At what price, I think it may say something about their priorities.

[Guest man]

Christ said it Himself. "Render to Caesar the things which are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's".

God has no use for our money. What's He going to do with it?

The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. If we write off our giving on our taxes, are we really giving? How many of us would stop giving or at least decrease in the amount if we knew we were not going to get it back on our taxes? What I give is between me and God and nobody else. Once it leaves my hands it's gone, I don't expect it back.

Those are my belief's when it comes to money and the Lord. I do it for Him and nobody else. I don't worry about where it goes or what they're doing with it. It's out of my hands.