The Church

[buckthesystem]

Saints, please be careful. As a moderator here I cannot condone any discussions that promote or encourage saints to break the law. If this discussion begins to trend that way then it will be removed immediately.

I don't think anybody was advocating "breaking the law" at all. If you are referring to pastors preaching things that would be considered "hate speech" when the law comes into being, this must be understood to be what it is. There is a constitutional right to "free speech" and the church has always enjoyed that right, therefore it would be breaking that law to accuse pastors of "not toeing the government line".

I think that all Christians have a responsibility to expose evil wherever we see it. And so if that includes "breaking the law" (this would be the law of man, not the law of God) then so be it.

No church should take a "tax emempt status". If it does, it means that it is beholden to government and is "under pressure" to toe the politically correct line.

[Marnie]

I didn't mean to sound like a snob with my earlier post. It's just that I think a sound theological education is a must if you want to pastor a church. I have discussed this with my Pastor at length, because I have heard some folk say that you can "educate" the Holy Ghost right out of you. However, as he so aptly pointed out, congregations are more and more educated these days and he, my pastor, would feel like he is cheating his if he didn't continually take courses, etc., and he already has a Th.D! Mind you, half of our church is made up lawyers and doctors and the other half teachers or other professionals.

In the southern states, anybody can start up a church anywhere, and sell used cars or whatever on the side. During the week you never know where to find that kind of Pastor. Now, I have a problem entrusting the care and feeding of my soul to someone who has no kind of training in theology and Christian counseling. I know the disciples were supposedly uneducated men (but not stupid), but Paul was highly educated as was Jesus. I am not holding them up as examples for education, only to say that perhaps my Pastor has a valid point. Education does NOT make a person a better preacher, necessarily, but when I sit in a pew I would like to think the guy behind the pulpit knows more than I, and is a professional in what he does, 7 days a week, not just on Sundays. I am not advocating government inovlement here, just highly trained, born again professionals behind the pulpit.

[delivered]

Scripture says that we must study to show ourselves approved, not watch others and consider them approved. I agree that by seeing some of the things that are going on within some church organizations today, it appears that conforming to the world is the appeal to the world. We should be separated as we watch (to be aware) and pray (to avoid the snares of satan).

Edited March 19, 2006 by delivered

[Smalcald]

The New Testament Church was very organized. It had deacons, Elders and Bishops, they owned property in common, they met regularly if not daily, they took communion together on a regular basis, they communicated through letters which were read as sermons, and the doctrine was approved only by the Apostles. The qualifications to be an overseer, a Deacon, elder or Bishop were specific, and they were not simply somebody who "felt" as if they were called (although that is obviously required). The first thing we notice is that they were not to be novices in the faith. I don't think ministers need degrees, but congregations should not allow someone who is a recent convert to lead, one would want to be tested I would think at least ten years in the faith before taking on one of these roles.

So I don't think we should have this idea that the first believers, were simply meeting as they saw fit and were kind of an unorganized rabble, they were not. If they were they would not have been so effective in surviving massive persecution and at the same time transmitting to us the Gospel and Holy Scripture.

Congregations need deep roots, they need to last for centuries, we need to raise our children and our grandchildren in them with consistency, they should not be thin soil, something that is here today and in two years when somebody moves just dies away, they are more than a bowling club. The first church would have NEVER survived under that scenario.

So yes we need to not be beholden to government, we need to look at scripture, but we need to be humble, we need to have humility and realize that God has appointed people to be our spiritual leaders on this earth. It seems to me that everybody wants to be in charge to create their own group, to teach and preach, which was not the model of the first churches in Asia Minor described in the New Testament. They sold what they owned and laid them at the feet of the Apostles. There are many fine Christian groups in operation around the country today, I think we can all find one that would meet with our approval. Yes there are also many that have become apostate or always were, and we need to be careful of those.

[jamie]

The New Testament Church was very organized. It had deacons, Elders and Bishops, they owned property in common, they met regularly if not daily, they took communion together on a regular basis, they communicated through letters which were read as sermons, and the doctrine was approved only by the Apostles.

It wasn't so organized that the Holy Spirit didn't have absolute free reign...The leaders were servant leaders, and "elder" was only an older experienced man, not someone who carried a title and lorded over people. Their shepherds made sure the body functioned from the shadows not from a pedestal.

I seriously doubt if we have ever came close, judging by todays institutionalized nicolaitan model . Most of todays churches would probably be more akin to the pharisitical system that Jesus and the apostles had to contend with. ( my opinion)

[ElijahSK]

Jamie,

Good last post. I can't but agree that the elder's and deacons were the servants of all. Jesus said the greatest among you will be your servant. These are experienced men in the faith. They would be there for a safe guard against false teaching and false prophecy. Unless someone was speak heresy or their gathering began to become disorderly and they needed to restore order, if you were to stop in one day you may not even know who the elders were.

Smalcald,

I wouldn't say the early church was meeting as they saw fit. They couldn't wait to see each other again. These were people that thought like them, understood the same things as they, believed on the same God. They continued in one accord with one mind in one faith. So when they met daily, it was because there was nothing they'd rather be doing then glorying and praising God with all their beloved brethren. This isn't a point of contention, just a clarification. As far as finding a body to fellowship with, I've found a house in a neighboring town where some believers are meeting together. I'm going to be going with them, but there is still one thing I would wish, that is to find devoted believers here in Baton Rouge and start getting together daily or as often as possible. Once we began meeting to determine if we had any that could meet the qualifications of an elder and a deacon and appoint them. Once we have them in place, to begin the service of helping the believing widows and orphans and needy brethren.

Butero,

I liked what you said, "After completing it again, I realized that God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. The changes that were occuring were not by the leading of God, but were a sell out to the world." And "I think the biggest problem is within the leadership." I only quote these because I wish to talk on them. But besides them, I thank you for your post. From the KJV, to homosexuals, to abortion, to divorce, to Amos 9, to Hosea 4, to Eccl 1:18, I am grateful to God that He delivers knowledge to men everywhere. And that He always retains His elect to Himself.

Now to speak on those couple things. First, that God is always the same. When He delivered the law to Moses, He made it perfect. Then through hardens of heart, He made a way to allow divorce. And we see in the New Covenant that He was not satified with the Old, because He found fault with it. It did not include faith, and it could never make a person perfect. So He decided to give us a covenant that could make us perfect and able to fulfill the law. (Not saying that we desire to put ourselves back under it, but that we do now because we have the mind of Christ.) In the same way, Jesus was made the head of the church in the new covenant. Paul and the apostles set up a system by which the church would run. That system ensured that Christ was always at the head of the church and in it it was very hard to bring false teaching or damnable doctrines into the church. Now we have sold out that system, and though God may allow us to have these temples made with hands again, it's not what He desires. He has shown how He desires it by His blessings toward it. Early church: believers that overcome, great signs happening among them, hated by the world. Our church today... judge for yourselves.

Next thing I wanted to comment on was the leaders thing. This was a big part of my original post that I deleted because it sounded to some like complaining. But I believe that if you have heard me thus far you'll not believe I am just trying to complain. I believe a biggest problem is also the leaders. But can I see why they do what they do and would not want the new testament system? According to the IRS as of 1954 a church had to register with them as a 501c3 corporation to be tax exempt. But anyone who as ever heard of the seperation of church and state know that they are automatically tax exempt inspite what the IRS says. It would not be so bad, except that the IRS has a completely different view of what the church should be than the new testament has. Whereas the IRS says they need a distinct legal existence, the New Testament church had no need for annual business meetings with minutes and financial records detailing how they spent every dollar. The IRS thinks they need to setup a hierarchy to govern the church, the early church had no government but appointed elders to watch over the church and correct teaching when needed and deacons to serve. The IRS says a church cannot be associated with any other church, but we see something very different when they went about their business. The IRS says you must ordain ministers now, they had no such practice in any of there churches. The IRS says you must establish a place of worship, the new testament churches met in each others houses. The early church had fathers that would raise their own children, the IRS says you must have sunday school.

The benefits on being a 501c3 corporation are that the senior pastor and associate pastors get to write off almost all their expenses on their taxes. Pracitically everything in and around their house can be written off. In exchange for these tax benefits, a pastor yields his freedom of speech in some things pertaining to politics, like supporting a certain candidate for an election. The IRS will allow the church to give food, shelter, and clothing. It will not allow them to give money. A 501c3 corp cannot deal in cash.

These issues were the jist of my original post. And I wouldn't think any of them were so bad, but that we have left the biblical pattern to fulfill the obligations to the IRS. And I see the biblical pattern as unparalelled in power and in faith. If you restored the biblical pattern today, 80% of the people if not much higher would straightaway leave the church. And we'd have the pure and spotless bride ready for Christ's return.

Why did Isreal want God to give them a king? Because they wanted to be like every other nation. Why do we want church building instead of a biblical church? Jews have synagogues. Muslims has mosques. Back in the day, every religion had its own temple. And we do nothing more than Isreal did. History repeating itself. The shadow of things to come becomes the things of today. We have the Spirit, but we want a pastor to lead us.

That is where I see the problem. I grew up in the church and in their school. I loved and enjoyed it until I couldn't get enough of the Bible. To the point where I would read it 16 hours a day. 8 hours during school, 8 hours after, with 8 hours of sleep. Then after I found alot of the stuff we believed wasn't anywhere to be found in the Bible, I went to the senior pastor at my church. When I brought my issues to him, I was basicly told that I was too young to understand and that I could no longer bring my Bible to school. After that I would memorize chapters and books, and came to realize that I had been missing out completely on what the church really was.

Abraham hoped for a city. David hoped to build God a temple. Today, my hope is to bring the true believers together, and begin meeting again as they once did. It's a support structure mentally, physically, and spiritually, that will get you through anything. And on top of that it will do nothing short of embolden you to preach God's word everywhere you go.

Edited March 19, 2006 by ElijahSK

[Smalcald]

The New Testament Church was very organized. It had deacons, Elders and Bishops, they owned property in common, they met regularly if not daily, they took communion together on a regular basis, they communicated through letters which were read as sermons, and the doctrine was approved only by the Apostles.

It wasn't so organized that the Holy Spirit didn't have absolute free reign...The leaders were servant leaders, and "elder" was only an older experienced man, not someone who carried a title and lorded over people. Their shepherds made sure the body functioned from the shadows not from a pedestal.

I seriously doubt if we have ever came close, judging by todays institutionalized nicolaitan model . Most of todays churches would probably be more akin to the pharisitical system that Jesus and the apostles had to contend with. ( my opinion)

I agree, but organization is not always bad, nor does organization mean that the Holy Spirit is not guiding that very organizing. How could a congregation, which fades away in three years, be said to have been guided by the Holy Spirit? We need congregations which have roots, that last for our lifetime, not until a leader backslides or until the people start squabbling over personalities, and storm out and form yet another group, which does the same thing in two years, this is what I see happening in so many of these groups which refuse to recognize the importance of stability and organization guided by the Holy Spirit.

I think there is a good deal of apostasy in today's organized denominations, but NOT in all of them. I think the apostasy was prophesized about, and does not come from how we are organizing but comes from simply throwing out the Holy Scriptures when we don't like what they have to say. When we do that we get things like divorce in the leadership, we get people thinking its okay to be a sexually active gay man and a minister, we get ideas that essentially deny the basics of our shared faith in Christ as God and our Lord.

God did not abandon us; the Holy Spirit still works in today's congregations of believers, in many of our traditional congregations from Southern Baptists to Methodists to Assembly of God to Lutheran. What I find disturbing is the refusal to participate in Christian life because we can't find other Christians who are "perfect" or we can't find a "perfect" church which models the little we know about the first congregations. I know the feeling, I have felt that feeling, but I have come to the conclusion that we are better off together than we are alone, I have also come to the conclusion that we are indeed commanded to worship together to take communion together and to show our love together, this cannot be done alone. Satan would love for us all to be disconnected never having long term congregational relationships.

[delivered]

Greetings in the Lord to all of you who write so eloquently about the things of God about this matter. I mostly agree with all you've said, as you point out scriptures that describe the early church and the comparisons to many of our modern-day churches. These things readily brought to mind the scripture in the Book of Jude: Chapter 1:4 -"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord our God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." The Holy Spirit also reminded me of Jude, Chapter 1:17 - "But beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; vs.18 "How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts."; and vs. 19 "These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit."; and vs. 20 "But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost."

Finally, the Spirit reminds me of the scripture Ephesians Chapter 5:15, "See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise."; and vs. 16 "Redeeming the time, because the days are evil."

I love the Lord and his word. I, too, struggle with the many things going on in the church today. But, by knowing it has been foretold, we're disturbed but not surprised. We need to re-organize; go back to the examples of the early church or look for a place of worship that exemplifies that model. Otherwise, pray for guidance to start one ourselves. Is this possible?

[Ovedya]

Saints, please be careful. As a moderator here I cannot condone any discussions that promote or encourage saints to break the law. If this discussion begins to trend that way then it will be removed immediately.

I don't think anybody was advocating "breaking the law" at all. If you are referring to pastors preaching things that would be considered "hate speech" when the law comes into being, this must be understood to be what it is. There is a constitutional right to "free speech" and the church has always enjoyed that right, therefore it would be breaking that law to accuse pastors of "not toeing the government line".

I think that all Christians have a responsibility to expose evil wherever we see it. And so if that includes "breaking the law" (this would be the law of man, not the law of God) then so be it.

No church should take a "tax emempt status". If it does, it means that it is beholden to government and is "under pressure" to toe the politically correct line.

Your response here contains a couple of errors.

To begin with "free speech" does not mean "anything goes." For example, you cannot say or write something that damages the reputations of others (Slander or libel). You also cannot say or write something that causes persons to harm others or damage property (Yellinbg "FIRE" in a theater). And you cannot say or write something that causes persons to break the law or commit acts of treason. So "free speech" is actually not really "free." There are restrictions to speech in our society, as there should be.

Secondly, a 501C3 does not make the church "beholden to government." Through this documentation the government does not assert any kind of control over the church at all. In fact, it's the opposite: A 501C3 grants the church the right to not be beholden to the government!

As an individual taxpayer you are beholden to the government. You don't pay your taxes? Then the government has the right to come and get their money from you in any way that they deem fit. This coould include freezing your assets and bank accounts, garnishing your wages, placing liens on your property, and even confiscating your property and selling it off at auction.

With a 501C3 status, the local church is free from having to "toe the line" of the IRS!

[Smalcald]

Well I can see a case and a time when the government will say that if your church preaches that gay sex is sin as shown in the bible, you are using hate speech, and further your church MUST marry gay people, if you don't you lose your tax exempt status. This is the kind of pressure, which does not exist now, but could exist, and I can easily foresee it happening. What if they say to congregations that do not ordain women, well you MUST ordain women because that is discrimination and you lose your tax-exempt status if you don