Copper Scroll Posted April 15, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 15, 2006 Remember the Lord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted April 15, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 15, 2006 I maintain that forknowledge is not the same thing as G-d forcing us to turn right instead of left. How are they not the same thing? If God created you knowing your every thought and action in life, then He created your every thought and action. If He created your every thought and action beforehand, these are not yours to choose. Right? Yes, it is not your free will that saves you; it is your choosing to appropriate what Christ did for you on the Cross that saves you. Is not the choice "to appropriate what Christ did for you on the Cross" made freely? How is this choice separate from free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepreacher Posted April 15, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 148 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 57 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/28/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted April 15, 2006 Remember the Lord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted April 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted April 17, 2006 I believe in predestination and having our own free will at the same time. Why wouldn't the future be predestined for everyone God had a plan from the beginning that salvation would come to all through jesus christ that plan hasn't changed to my knowledge and it is God's predetermined will for everyone now or in the future to be saved. I understand or at least I think I do that not everyone will choose to be saved in this life but it still is predetermined for them to be saved in God's plan. G-d does not predestinate some for heaven or some for hell. It is His eternal plan (of salvation) that has been predetermined. I just don't see how my individual freewill or anybody else's can secure salvation unconditionally how does my freewill to choose in life secure my salvation? Isn't it accepting salvation or accepting God's plan of salvation that actually saves me? Yes, it is not your free will that saves you; it is your choosing to appropriate what Christ did for you on the Cross that saves you. But that still don't secure me forever if I choose to exercise my free will and choose not God's will anymore or at least that's what I think? If it is true of what you say that we are in control of our own destiny then there can't be security in that because one can choose another path at any moment in life and thus what was seemingly secure and unconditional then becomes conditional all over again within the persons life. I just don't get it. There is eternal security in the sense that no man can take your salvation from you and you cannot lose it as you would your car keys or gloves. But you can, of your own accord, walk away from G-d's plan if you so choose and G-d will allow you to do so. That's why we pray, as Jesus did the Garden, for the strength do drink from whatever cup G-d wants us to. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marnie Posted April 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 811 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 7,338 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/06/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 17, 2006 Is not the choice "to appropriate what Christ did for you on the Cross" made freely? How is this choice separate from free will? I am not understanding the question. Yes, choosing Christ is a decision a person makes of their own free will, but the power of salvation rests not in the decision but in the Cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted April 18, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 18, 2006 Is it pride that makes you want to choose without God? I thought I'd made clear in the last post that this has nothing to do with wanting. The bottom line is that a command is meaningless if the person issuing the command already determined whether the person receiving the command will act in accordance with that command or not. In the Bible, God commands us. Why would God command us if we can't choose between obedience and disobedience? Now, you agreed that we can choose, but I thought you also said that God knows what we will always choose in every situation. If this is true and if it is true that God made us and the situation itself, then didn't God make our choices? If God made our choices, then we don't really choose; what we think we choose has already been chosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted April 18, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 18, 2006 Is not the choice "to appropriate what Christ did for you on the Cross" made freely? How is this choice separate from free will? I am not understanding the question. Yes, choosing Christ is a decision a person makes of their own free will, but the power of salvation rests not in the decision but in the Cross. You understood the question well enough to answer it. From your answer, I gather that salvation requires an interaction between us and God... and our part of the interaction is made freely. But there was another question I posted: How are God's foreknowledge and God's predetermination not the same thing? If God created you knowing your every thought and action in life, then He created your every thought and action. If He created your every thought and action beforehand, these are not yours to choose. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepreacher Posted April 19, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 148 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 57 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/28/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted April 19, 2006 To thepreacher The things in which I seek understanding on are not even being addressed on the boards or in any of the threads for I have not disclosed what it is that I seek in reference to freewill to anyone thus far nor will I for it is between me and God and does not concern others this is just for the record for those who would accuse me further if any should have questions about me. I come here to have fellowship and grow and to learn if I can if it makes me a bad person in your eyes cause you don't know what makes me tick I am sincerly sorry. I do not know what makes others tick but that is okay I don't have to. OC I just noticed this answer from you. If I have offended you I apologize. That was not my intent. I believe we are commanded to try and help anyone asking questions. Like I said, I believe it is up to God to make anyone understand. Just a suggestion but reading in Matt 12:10-15 Jesus spoke in parables so that the people would not understand and be saved. The same holds true when you (like you say) you are holding back what you REALLY seek, from everyone on this board. Jesus told his disciples what the parables meant. Maybe you can tell people what you are really asking. If you ask for stones but really mean bread, what do you think you would get? On the other hand if you are waiting to see if God gives us the dream and interpretation like the pharaoh did with Joseph. That would be testing God to see if he would do that. So you are right, I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted April 19, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted April 19, 2006 To thepreacher The things in which I seek understanding on are not even being addressed on the boards or in any of the threads for I have not disclosed what it is that I seek in reference to freewill to anyone thus far nor will I for it is between me and God and does not concern others this is just for the record for those who would accuse me further if any should have questions about me. I come here to have fellowship and grow and to learn if I can if it makes me a bad person in your eyes cause you don't know what makes me tick I am sincerly sorry. I do not know what makes others tick but that is okay I don't have to. OC I just noticed this answer from you. If I have offended you I apologize. That was not my intent. I believe we are commanded to try and help anyone asking questions. Like I said, I believe it is up to God to make anyone understand. Just a suggestion but reading in Matt 12:10-15 Jesus spoke in parables so that the people would not understand and be saved. The same holds true when you (like you say) you are holding back what you REALLY seek, from everyone on this board. Jesus told his disciples what the parables meant. Maybe you can tell people what you are really asking. If you ask for stones but really mean bread, what do you think you would get? On the other hand if you are waiting to see if God gives us the dream and interpretation like the pharaoh did with Joseph. That would be testing God to see if he would do that. So you are right, I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepreacher Posted April 19, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 148 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 57 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/28/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted April 19, 2006 To thepreacher The things in which I seek understanding on are not even being addressed on the boards or in any of the threads for I have not disclosed what it is that I seek in reference to freewill to anyone thus far nor will I for it is between me and God and does not concern others this is just for the record for those who would accuse me further if any should have questions about me. I come here to have fellowship and grow and to learn if I can if it makes me a bad person in your eyes cause you don't know what makes me tick I am sincerly sorry. I do not know what makes others tick but that is okay I don't have to. OC I just noticed this answer from you. If I have offended you I apologize. That was not my intent. I believe we are commanded to try and help anyone asking questions. Like I said, I believe it is up to God to make anyone understand. Just a suggestion but reading in Matt 12:10-15 Jesus spoke in parables so that the people would not understand and be saved. The same holds true when you (like you say) you are holding back what you REALLY seek, from everyone on this board. Jesus told his disciples what the parables meant. Maybe you can tell people what you are really asking. If you ask for stones but really mean bread, what do you think you would get? On the other hand if you are waiting to see if God gives us the dream and interpretation like the pharaoh did with Joseph. That would be testing God to see if he would do that. So you are right, I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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