God's foreknowledge and human freedom

[Copper Scroll]

If it is truly based on our complete free will or even if it were based on complete foreknowledge or preordained: would you still want to have salvation or death?

I think the notion of complete free will is more ludicrous that the notion of complete predetermination. The latter is at least possible. I think we are free within boundaries, but that freedom makes complete and detailed knowledge of all future events impossible.

To answer your question, I suppose I would still want salvation--even if free will doesn't exist or it's just an illusion. Why do you ask?

[thepreacher]

If it is truly based on our complete free will or even if it were based on complete foreknowledge or preordained: would you still want to have salvation or death?

I think the notion of complete free will is more ludicrous that the notion of complete predetermination. The latter is at least possible. I think we are free within boundaries, but that freedom makes complete and detailed knowledge of all future events impossible.

To answer your question, I suppose I would still want salvation--even if free will doesn't exist or it's just an illusion. Why do you ask?

Hi!

Believing one or the other way doesn't really matter as much when you ask that question.

I believe God just wants to prove you know and for us to give him the credit. He tests everyone.

For those that lean too far to the free will side; not to be too proud. For those leaning to the other; not to get too lazy.

It has been hinted in this forum that free will, foreknowledge and predestination are all true. I believe they all fit together in God

[Copper Scroll]

I hate to have to state the obvious, again but even by man's definition "Free Will"is not essentially the ability to make choices.

The American Heritage College Dictionary:

"free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice. 2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will."

My Meriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary/Eleventh Edition has an even more precise definition:

"free will n. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention."

So you see "free will" is not the ability to make choices.

Huh? To paraphrase, you say: Free will is not the ability to make choices, it's the ability to choose and the freedom to make choices. What's the "obvious" difference?

All of life operates on the principle of cause and effect.There has never been nor will there ever be an instance when any choice can be made without there being a cause behind it.And it is always God who causes it.

I disagree. All of Creation except us operate according to cause and effect. Animals, plants, and all other "natural" phenomena appear to act this way. In a given situation, a human person is liable to act a number of different ways. A human person has choices, because a human being is conscious of his/her own existence and is capable of abstract thought. This, I believe anyway, is what it means to be made in God's image. God is the all-powerful agent, and we (in His image) are also agents and also have power. We are commanded by God to use these special tools to name and to care for the rest of Creation. What (btw) is the point of a command from God if God just makes us do what we do anyway?

In other words this concept of "free will" is a delusion.It does not exist.Do you honestly believe it is you who chooses to believe without God first causing you to make that choice in the first place?

This is owed to God and it is owed to me. Faith in God is an interaction between God and the believer--it is a relationship. It requires actions on my part and grace and revelation on God's part. What you describe is not a relationship. Your worldview makes a relationship impossible and the semblance of relationship "delusional".

Do you really think that you have a "will" that is free of God's "will?

If I were to say "yes" it would imply that I can somehow overrule God. I know that this cannot be done, but--yes, I do have some level of autonomy and independence. God, I believe, does not micromanage Creation for His own entertainment and vanity. Much in this world is left to us.

You see there is no point to do any of these things -APART FROM GOD, it is he who wills us to do it all for -HIS GLORY.

See my question from the previous post: You are saying that God created a people He knew would be so wicked that they probably should have never been made, and then God destroyed them to make Himself look good (glory)? It doesn't make much sense to me.

Joh 1:11 To His own He came, and those who are His own accepted Him not."

Joh 1:12 Yet whoever obtained Him, to them He gives the right to become children of God, to those who are believing in His name,

Joh 1:13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God."

There is nothing that exist without God.All things are through him and for him.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. "

Joh 1:2 This was in the beginning toward God.

Joh 1:3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being."

Joh 1:4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."It is for his delight,purpose and plan.

I think that this is essentially saying that God made everything (including us) and what He wills (for us) will be done. The dispute lies with how "micro" God's will is. God, I believe, has a plan--but that does not mean that we have no freedom or autonomy. If God wants to make something happen, I'm sure God will--but that does not mean that everything that happens is dictated by Him.

Even Jesus did his Fathers "will"and not his own,now if his(Jesus's) "will"was "free"he clearly would have chosen the cup pass by from him but yet he prayed and did God's "will".

If he was incapable of free choice, then there would have been no point to him being tempted. There would be no point to God being pleased with Jesus if He made Jesus do what he did.

Verse 12 does not end with a full stop,I suggest you read verse 13.

Phi 2:13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight

Do you get it?It is God who OPERATES,WILLS AND WORKS FOR HIS DELIGHT.

This does not respond to what I wrote. If a salesman chooses to do his job, then the company he represents is operating through him. He must choose it first. Similarly, a person must choose a relationship with God in order for God to operate in him. The author is pleading for his audience to fulfill their relationship with God.

Now, there are points in scripture where God seems to force people to do certain things because He wills that certain things happen as their result (like your example from Daniel--like when a person is forced in order to show God's power). But, given God's commands and lived experience, this is the exception rather than the rule.

The scriptures you have given proves we have the ability to choose but as I've already established choice is not "free will"

If you have a problem with that then your problem is not with me but with God.All that I have stated comes not from me but from God's word.It is not my "truths"but God's devine and absolute truth.

...rather your interpretation of what the Bible says. You are correct in that the truth is what is regardless of what you think. That means that what you think is not necessarily the truth. I recommend that you get out of the habit of trying to pass yourself off as God's representative.

I don't see any proof of this "free will" in the bible ,can you?

It is implicit in God's commands. Why would he command something of a person who is not free to choose whether or not to follow that command? If God wills that I not eat from this tree, why not just bar me from eating from it? If God wills that I not strike my brother dead, why not just keep me from doing it? Why admonish me to overcome sin if He's just going to make me either overcome it or not?

[eric]

I'm not quite sure who posted this, Xytana, I think, but I would like to know which version of the bible it comes from.....Anybody?

Joh 1:11 To His own He came, and those who are His own accepted Him not."

Joh 1:12 Yet whoever obtained Him, to them He gives the right to become children of God, to those who are believing in His name,

Joh 1:13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God."

There is nothing that exist without God.All things are through him and for him.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. "

Joh 1:2 This was in the beginning toward God.

Joh 1:3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being."

Joh 1:4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."It is for his delight,purpose and

[Copper Scroll]

It is implicit in God's commands. Why would he command something of a person who is not free to choose whether or not to follow that command? If God wills that I not eat from this tree, why not just bar me from eating from it? If God wills that I not strike my brother dead, why not just keep me from doing it? Why admonish me to overcome sin if He's just going to make me either overcome it or not?

Firstly I do not try to pass myself of as Gods representative,I merely state what the spirit of God convicts me of.

Once again "FREE WILL" is the ability to make a choice without there being a cause for it,just because you are unaware of the cause does not make it non existant.

The definiton you offered that spoke to causation said that free will cannot be determined by prior causes. Everything we experience is caused, but causes don't necessarily determine the actions of conscious agent. A conscious agent is aware of the "causes" acting on him/her and can evaluate them and make his/her decision based on that evaluation. A conscious agent has the capacity to overcome or offset the influence of his/her circumstances in making decisions. This is why scripture tells us that we are without excuse. This is why God tells Cain that even though his circumstance causes him to feel hate and rage, these can be overcome.

Your view provides a very fundamental excuse for sin: "God, you made me this way and you made me sin." For you, God is the author of sin. (Btw, you never answer the questions I have at the top of this post.)

I am not the one who posted this topic,I believe that was you.I suggest that you not post any more topics if you are so offened by some one who contradicts you.As I stated everything that I say comes from scripture.Where is your scriptural proof?

I'm not offended by you pretending to be God's representative, and I'm certaintly not offended by the topic. (And I don't know where you got that idea.) You appear to ignore the scriptures I raise. Go back through the posts. I don't feel like looking them up right now. In sum: Every scripture that offers a command implies that the audience has the freedom to choose whether or not to obey. The example of God's conversation with Cain before the murder explicitly documents God telling Cain he has a choice. If what you say is true, if we don't make choices independently of God's intervention--then why does God pretend that we do have this ability? You never answer this question (unless "for His own glory" or "for His own entertainment" is considered by you an answer. It's not.)

[Openly Curious]

Hello copperscroll,

I've read through some of the posts in this thread but not all of them my attention span ain't that good at present but I think I get the jest of the subject if not overlook me. I am questioning this freewill thing right now in my own intellect and I believe we do have or we have been given our freedom of choice in Christ when we accepted him and I am free to choose in life whatever I want to do. God isn't holding a hammer over me ready to hit me if I don't. But before I was saved I did not have that free will of choice as I was born a slave to sin born under the curse of the law born in bondgage.

But I don't see it like God has made me a slave to him because he set me free to choose what I wanted for myself. Satan on the other hand took us captive by one man's sin Adam's and he took the whole entire human race captive at that very moment I didn't have freedom of choice in this arena I was born a slave. I also know God's got commandments he wants us to obey but God didn't make me a slave to him else I wouldn't be free would I. But he set me free from being a slave. So in saying all this how do you think it all adds up and fits into the scriptures as far as God's foreknowledge and Him giving us freedom of choice.

OC

[ChrisChrusherComix]

It all depends on if you believe in Calvinism... predestination vs. free will. I don't believe the future is predestined, and I believe that God is living IN time like we are. Under this premise, God can predict the future with incredible accuracy, control certain factors, and He could change His mind whenever He wants. But... since He gave us free will, us humans can surprise, disappoint, or please Him in our actions. We are in control of our own destiny, and God watches what we do in time.

There recently was a tremendous debate that took place on TheologyOnline forums. I think it's still available on the site, but it's also availalble here.

[Openly Curious]

It all depends on if you believe in Calvinism... predestination vs. free will. I don't believe the future is predestined, and I believe that God is living IN time like we are. Under this premise, God can predict the future with incredible accuracy, control certain factors, and He could change His mind whenever He wants. But... since He gave us free will, us humans can surprise, disappoint, or please Him in our actions. We are in control of our own destiny, and God watches what we do in time.

There recently was a tremendous debate that took place on TheologyOnline forums. I think it's still available on the site, but it's also availalble here.

Openly Curious

I believe in predestination and having our own free will at the same time. Why wouldn't the future be predestined for everyone God had a plan from the beginning that salvation would come to all through jesus christ that plan hasn't changed to my knowledge and it is God's predetermined will for everyone now or in the future to be saved. I understand or at least I think I do that not everyone will choose to be saved in this life but it still is predetermined for them to be saved in God's plan.

I just don't see how my individual freewill or anybody else's can secure salvation unconditionally how does my freewill to choose in life secure my salvation? Isn't it accepting salvation or accepting God's plan of salvation that actually saves me? But that still don't secure me forever if I choose to exercise my free will and choose not God's will anymore or at least that's what I think? If it is true of what you say that we are in control of our own destiny then there can't be security in that because one can choose another path at any moment in life and thus what was seemingly secure and unconditional then becomes conditional all over again within the persons life. I just don't get it.

OC

[Copper Scroll]

It all depends on if you believe in Calvinism... predestination vs. free will. I don't believe the future is predestined, and I believe that God is living IN time like we are. Under this premise, God can predict the future with incredible accuracy, control certain factors, and He could change His mind whenever He wants. But... since He gave us free will, us humans can surprise, disappoint, or please Him in our actions. We are in control of our own destiny, and God watches what we do in time.

There recently was a tremendous debate that took place on TheologyOnline forums. I think it's still available on the site, but it's also availalble here.

Wow! I'll check that out when I have time to read it.

You are the first poster on this very extensive thread that has echoed my sentiment. It seems that most of the posters here choose to overlook the illogic of human freedom and divine foreknowledge--while a few others claim that free will doesn't exist (apparent Calvinism)... logically sound but existentially (and theologically) problematic.

Thanks.

[Copper Scroll]

Hello copperscroll,

I've read through some of the posts in this thread but not all of them my attention span ain't that good at present but I think I get the jest of the subject if not overlook me. I am questioning this freewill thing right now in my own intellect and I believe we do have or we have been given our freedom of choice in Christ when we accepted him and I am free to choose in life whatever I want to do. God isn't holding a hammer over me ready to hit me if I don't. But before I was saved I did not have that free will of choice as I was born a slave to sin born under the curse of the law born in bondgage.

But I don't see it like God has made me a slave to him because he set me free to choose what I wanted for myself. Satan on the other hand took us captive by one man's sin Adam's and he took the whole entire human race captive at that very moment I didn't have freedom of choice in this arena I was born a slave. I also know God's got commandments he wants us to obey but God didn't make me a slave to him else I wouldn't be free would I. But he set me free from being a slave. So in saying all this how do you think it all adds up and fits into the scriptures as far as God's foreknowledge and Him giving us freedom of choice.

OC

I'm not sure if I understand this completely. Are you saying that you did not have free will before you accepted Christ but now have it since accepting Christ? The obvious question then is How did you accept Christ without having free will? or Is accepting Christ the only "free" choice an unbeliever can make? If so, how or why?