David from New Bern Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted March 24, 2006 I think the next logical question to further the conversation is not is it a sin to keep the restrictions of the old law, but is it immaturity? I'm not talking about traditions that are aids to worship, but a sense that I must do this in order to worship. In other words, I can't worship unless I ........... I think that if someone feels the have to keep the law it is a sign of not understanding grace. So yes.......immaturity in the faith. When someone wants to follow the law it can be for numerous reasons. 1) They don't understand grace. 2) They see it as a sort of reverence and in that case, it's a personal decision. 3) It's a fad. Now don't laugh at me but I honestly believe that some that follow Jewish customs or OT laws do so to bring attention to themselves. The motivation is to be different or somehow appear "closer" to Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I think the next logical question to further the conversation is not is it a sin to keep the restrictions of the old law, but is it immaturity? I'm not talking about traditions that are aids to worship, but a sense that I must do this in order to worship. In other words, I can't worship unless I ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David from New Bern Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted March 24, 2006 I think the next logical question to further the conversation is not is it a sin to keep the restrictions of the old law, but is it immaturity? I'm not talking about traditions that are aids to worship, but a sense that I must do this in order to worship. In other words, I can't worship unless I ........... Is it immaturity to keep the "restrictions?" Without realizing it, what you are asking if it is immature for a Jew to live like a Jew. Many Jewish believers keep the Sabbath, kosher and so forth. What specifically would be "immature" about that?? Immaturity from a spiritual perspective refers selfishness, backbiting, gossiping and so forth. Some of the most mature believers I have ever met, are Jews who still live like Jews. Immaturity has nothing to do with keeping the Torah. I have never understood why Jews are singled out like this. Does anyone complain when other cultures and peoples maintain their distinctives as Christians? Why is it wrong for Jews to do likewise?? Viable questions and viable statements, but my questions are not accussations. Please don't misinterpret what I'm bringing to the discussion. I am perfectly open to the idea of cultural preference, but we also know that my culture can blind me to spiritual truth. Jewish culture saw the Gentile as unclean, but culture had to be dismissed to accept the truth that salvcation was for the Gentile as well. Now I haven't concluded for you that dietary law must follow the same way of segregation practice. My question is... Is blind acceptance of the dietary law and Sabbath (Saturday) restriction hindering a deeper understanding of grace for the Messianic Jew? Is it akin to protestant legalism in its effect on the Jewish believer? Legalism IMO leads to shallow Christian practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Is blind acceptance of the dietary law and Sabbath (Saturday) restriction hindering a deeper understanding of grace for the Messianic Jew? Is it akin to protestant legalism in its effect on the Jewish believer? Legalism IMO leads to shallow Christian practice. What makes you think that Messianic Jews "blindly" accept the dietary commandments or the Sabbath?? Seems you already have some preconceived notions. The commandments of God and the grace of God are two wings of the same bird. The commandments make you more aware of God's grace, not less aware. The Sabbath for example is a living expression of Jesus Himself. Every aspect of the Sabbath points to Jesus as the Messiah. The one thing that separates the Torah apart from other ancient law codes was the grace and forgiveness that it contained. The code of Hammurabi, for example provided none of the mercy provided for in the Torah. The Torah of Moses is a set of pictures. It is a set of pictures that leads a person to redemption. It leads you to the grace of God, not away from it. Nowhere does the New Testament teach a negative view of the Torah. The New Testament upholds the Torah. No it is not akin to legalism. Legalism and keeping God's and true Messianic Torah observance are two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~SPIRITBLADE~ Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 49 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/23/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2006 I didn't know I was yelling until I was just told via e-mail..Sorry I condem no one for keeping their consciences clean on the contrary I am considered a pagan heathen for keeping my liberties ,Sunday worship, celebrating Christs birth, ressurection day ect...Now therefore why tempt ye God... The gentiles were never put under the yoke that neither the disciples nor their fathers were able to bear Acts 15:6-11. Before Acts 9 the gentiles were not in the picture. Jesus came to the jews and only twice did He address a gentile. The twelve were sent to the jews. Galatians 2:3-8 speaks that even Titus was not compelled to be circumsiced this is interesting. My friend says that we are commanded to go baptize (not that I wouldn't love to do these things, for the most part I do) but if that were a true statement and there is no personal convictions reveiled to indivisuals then why does Paul say in 1 Cor 1:12-18 V.17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel. My problem in with those who judge those who have faith to touch, taste, consider and esteem all days holy unto the Lord .. Yeah, I myself have no problem with people who want to keep the holy days and the dietary restrictions themselves...but I do have a problem with the ones who a) think they're necessary for salvation and/or b) feel they need to force these beliefs on me (especially when it's not done with intelligent discussion, just with a lot of harping and circular arguments). Whereas i would preface this by saying, "-each must work-out hisown salvation" i would remind all people here: 643 commands in the 'old' testament, 1050 in the 'new'- and yet THERE IS ONLY ONE WE ARE ASKED TO REMEMBER. The COMMANDER is quite specific, regarding the TRADTIONS of men, versus the DOCTRINE of God. God is quite specific, when He stated that -"my WORD, will never fade"- (as good today, as when uttered- UNCHANGED by Messiah Sacrafice). Lastly, (having said that) in Jerimiah 10, God is quite SPECIFIC how NOT TO WORSHIP HIM. Now, look at friday's/saturday's paper, where churches advertise.... Does hethen worship occur on the Sabbath, or on the EXACT opposite day of the week-? Paul addresses PRACTICING SABBATH WORSHIPERS, when he states, -"let no man trouble you concerning the DAY"- According to Papa, the Commander returns on the DAY OF THE LORD. So, will time end on SATURDAY- or SUNDAY-? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 The friend that I talk to every day who is not a jew but insists that we gentiles are to become jews because God is a jew and by not keeping the law of Moses we gentiles are sinning willfully.She says that we must keep The sabbath,holy days all of them,kosher, circumsice on the eight day and all 613 commandments in the Torah and prophets .But not for salvation..??She also is very angry about the days we honor God with. She insists the Jesus only came to get rid of the sacrifices and nothing more ,church means synogouge, calling Messiah Jesus is pagan,the Lord's supper is passover and only to be done once a year and only according to the Hebrew calender passover ect....She rarely speaks about the Holy Spirit..I wish I could help her I've seen this happen to a lot of people When someone finds out how much they have never been told about the foundation of our faith, they sometimes go overboard in the excitement of it all. Suddenly everything the church ever said is a lie and anything jewish is true. It's a phase that a lot newbies go through. Some longer than others. If she's your friend, you'll hang in there as friends. If you really think there is a problem, why don't you go to the Passover with her and see what's going on for yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K.L. Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 27 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/27/1971 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I shall do one thing all of you choose not to. In this whole thread not ONE of you sought what Yeshua said... who is your Messiah? Paul? Mat 5:17-20 Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill. (18) Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to pass. (19) Therefore, whoever relaxes one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. (20) For I say to you, If your righteousness shall not exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of God, never! If Messiah is correct (dare I ask) then the law stands as is. To those who debate blindly, study! Please!! The law is a beautiful work of divine art. You want to know Yeshua? Learn his Laws, embrace his laws. "But what of the sacrificial laws... those don't need to be kept." 1st, there is no Temple to make sacrifice, so I guess that would be a wasted debate. Next, Yeshua is our sacrifice, for what sin do we need atonement for? So the law stands, Yeshua is our sacrifice, and to say the law is dead, is to say Yeshua is no longer necessary. Concerning Paul, I know many Messianic's do not like Sh'aul. My response, grow up. Sh'aul is only confusing to those who have no understanding, as Peter warned 2Pe 3:15-16 And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation, as also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him; (16) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unsettled pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. To those who say Paul preached against being a lawbidding christian, consider this Act 21:20-27 And hearing, they glorified the Lord, and said to him, You see, brother, how many myriads there are of Jews that have believed, and all are zealous ones of the Law. (21) And they were informed about you, that you teach falling away from Moses, telling all the Jews throughout the nations not to circumcise their children, nor to walk in the customs. (22) What then is it? At all events, a multitude must come together, for they will hear that you have come. (23) Then do this, what we say to you: There are four men who have a vow on themselves; (24) taking these, be purified with them, and be at expense on them, that they may shave the head. And all shall know that all what they have been told about you is nothing, but you yourself walk orderly, keeping the Law. (25) And as to the believing nations, we joined in writing, judging them to observe no such thing, except to keep themselves from both idol sacrifice, and the blood, and a thing strangled, and from fornication. (26) Then taking the men on the next day, having been purified with them, Paul went into the temple, declaring the fulfillment of the days of the purification, until the offering should be offered for each one of them. (27) But when the seven days were about to be completed, having seen him in the temple, the Jews from Asia stirred up all the crowd, and they laid hands on him, Now know that if you fight, your fighting with the Messiah. Wrestle with God, that is a good thing. K.L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanasimmons Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 335 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/05/1967 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I consider ALL days to belong to Him. "This is the day the Lord has made and I will rejoice in it". Numbers 14:11,12,22,23 God speaks to Moses(because the israelites did not want God to talk directly with them Exo 2018-21)about their disbelief (trust) when Israel refused to enter Canaan. Hewrews 3:7-19 tells us this unbelief V.19 "So we see then that they could not enter in because of unbelief". Hebrews 4:1-10 V.3 "For we who have believed do enter that rest......... V.10"For he who has entered HIS rest has also ceased from his WORKS as GOD did from His. Paul himself through beatings,tears and frustration kept on keeping on for the sake of TRUTH he was a God pleaser not a man pleaser. He didn't always make sure every one had the warm fuzzies in his letters to whom?? The believers....He got down right angry in some of his letters because he loved us enough to not always be the popular guy .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanasimmons Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 335 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/05/1967 Share Posted March 24, 2006 All of Hebrews but chapters 7 and 8 are a must read on this question 7: V.12 "For the preisthood being changed of necessity there is also a change of the law" 8:V.6 BUT now He has obtained a more excellent ministry,inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant,which was established on better promises. V.7"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no placewould have been sought for a second V.13 In that he says" A new covenant" He has made the first obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K.L. Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 27 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/27/1971 Share Posted March 24, 2006 All of Hebrews but chapters 7 and 8 are a must read on this question 7: V.12 "For the preisthood being changed of necessity there is also a change of the law" 8:V.6 BUT now He has obtained a more excellent ministry,inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant,which was established on better promises. V.7"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no placewould have been sought for a second V.13 In that he says" A new covenant" He has made the first obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away". What would you say to Mat 5:17-20 Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill. (18) Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to pass. (19) Therefore, whoever relaxes one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. (20) For I say to you, If your righteousness shall not exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of God, never! K.L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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