David from New Bern Posted March 23, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Share Posted March 23, 2006 I had a Messianic Jew visit in our church as part of Chosen People Ministries last year. He was from Moscow, highly intelligent, raised to be agnostic but "found his Jewishness" in adulthood. I was intrigued to find that he kept dietary laws like the orthodox, wore orthodox symbolism, and kept the Sabbath. He read and embraced the truths of the New Testament including the plight of Peter's struggle with the Law and the new liberty. I asked him questions on key verses and narratives where the traditions of men were discussed. I never got clear answers from him that satisfied my desire to know if he was in bondage to tradition. The closest he got to answering me, he said he still felt obligated to keep the covenant. Was my friend right, wrong, or as Paul put it weak minded in this area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanasimmons Posted March 23, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 335 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/05/1967 Share Posted March 23, 2006 I have a friend who is not a jew and she insists that we are still under the old testament laws. We've talked (debated) almost every day for over two years now. She insists that its a sin to not keep the holy days. I have found nothing to support the things she says only to the contrary. As far as a Messianic Jew is concerned, the whole book of Hebrews is written to Jews who wrer struggling with these very issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 I had a Messianic Jew visit in our church as part of Chosen People Ministries last year. He was from Moscow, highly intelligent, raised to be agnostic but "found his Jewishness" in adulthood. I was intrigued to find that he kept dietary laws like the orthodox, wore orthodox symbolism, and kept the Sabbath. He read and embraced the truths of the New Testament including the plight of Peter's struggle with the Law and the new liberty. I asked him questions on key verses and narratives where the traditions of men were discussed. I never got clear answers from him that satisfied my desire to know if he was in bondage to tradition. The closest he got to answering me, he said he still felt obligated to keep the covenant. Was my friend right, wrong, or as Paul put it weak minded in this area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rania Posted March 23, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 269 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/13/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2006 (edited) I believe your friend should follow his convictions and do what he feels is right. If he understands Paul's teachings, he will also respect your lack of conviction regarding the same thing. Personally, I love keeping the Sabbath because I think of it as a gift from God that is for my own good. Where people go wrong is when they tie following the law into works and/or salvation. I keep the Sabbath because it is a day I devote completely to God. The two commandments in the NT of love the Lord your God and love your neighbor are what I follow. Keeping the Sabbath falls under Love the Lord your God. (for me) It's a very personal conviction. Edited March 23, 2006 by Rania Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted March 23, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2006 It's entirely between him and God. The sin would not be in the act itself, but in his motives (which you cannot know unless he revealed them). Some people just enjoy traditions and it gives them a sense of identity or comfort to adhere to them. They may be for mere ceremonial purposes. While I would debate all day long with someone who tried to force such traditions on me (see Romans 14), by the same token I cannot judge one who chooses to do them for their own personal reasons. Each of us has personal ways that we worship God and we should give one another grace and freedom to express ourselves to Him in the way we each see fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giaour Posted March 23, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 179 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,941 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/08/1964 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Isn't there a verse about not judging another on what they eat and when they worship? I think there is another verse about, if someone thinks it is a sin, then it IS a sin to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David from New Bern Posted March 23, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted March 23, 2006 (edited) It seems a bit arrogant to say this person was "weak-minded" because you don't understand the scriptures about this subject. For clarification I was offering three possible interpretations of my friends beliefs for discussion, that they could be right, wrong, or he was being weak minded. Weak minded is a biblical term used to describe those trapped in an elementary literal interpretation of a biblical principle. Your user name "Yod" is that an indication perhaps that you are Jewish? If so, I have not meant to be offensive. You will notice I left my opinion out of my opening statement. I just offered three possible conclusions. Shalom Edited March 23, 2006 by David from New Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rania Posted March 23, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 269 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/13/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2006 Isn't there a verse about not judging another on what they eat and when they worship? I think there is another verse about, if someone thinks it is a sin, then it IS a sin to them. I like this one: James 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheya joie Posted March 23, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,054 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 351 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2006 Isn't there a verse about not judging another on what they eat and when they worship? I think there is another verse about, if someone thinks it is a sin, then it IS a sin to them. You are looking for Romans 14. The first part covers what different believers eat and when they worship, and then the final verse says: Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanasimmons Posted March 23, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 335 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/05/1967 Share Posted March 23, 2006 I tell my friend the same thing about if she believes its sin then to her it would be. I do not discourage her willful bondage. She says that we christians are sinning by not obeying the law of Moses. She calls herself a believer but not a christian. I feel, to come under the law would be disobedience to God like turning your back on His gift of grace through FAITH. He said, Don't call unclean what God has cleansed..Please pray for her. She doesn't talk about the Holy Spirit much at all 2 Cor 3:1-18 v.15 BUT EVEN TO THIS DAY, WHEN MOSES IS READ, A VEIL LIES ON THEIR HEART. I can't quit talking to her until the Holy Spirit convicts me to move on. Galatians2:21 I DO NOT FRUSTRATE THE GRACE OF GOD: FOR IF RIGHTEOUSNESS COME BY THE LAW, THEN CHRIST IS DEAD IN VAIN. Galatians 3:10-12 v.10 FOR AS MANY AS ARE OF THE WORKS OF THE LAW ARE UNDER THE CURSE: for as it is written Cursed is everyone who does not continue in ALL things which are written in the book of the law, to do them v.11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, "FOR THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" V.12 YET THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH,but"THE MAN WHO DOES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM" Galatian 5:1-12 v.1 stand therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free,and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. v.2 Behold, I paul say to you, that if you be circumcised, CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING. v.3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,that he is a debtor TO DO THE WHOLE LAW. v.4 Christ has become of no effect to you,whosoever of you are justified by the law:YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE.. .v.5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness BY FAITH. v.6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision avails anything,nor un circumcision:but faith which works by love v.7 You DID run well;WHO DID HINDER YOU THAT YOU SHOULD NOT OBEY the TRUTH? v.8This persuasion comes NOT OF HIM THAT CALLS YOU. v.9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. v10 I have confidence in you through our Lord,that you will be none other wise minded; but he who troubles you SHALL BEAR HIS JUDGMENT, whosoever he be v.11And I brethen, IF I YET PREACH CIRCUMCISION,WHY DO I YET SUFFER PERSECUTION? THEN IS THE OFFENCE OF THE CROSS CEASED V.12 IWISH THAT THOSE WHO TROUBLE YOU WOULD EVEN CUT THEMSELVES OFF!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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