st. Worm Posted April 17, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 17, 2006 Sorry Horizons, I won't be provoked by your childish taunting. You won't even provide any response to chrismarc yet you want me to waste my time on you. I have stated my position before and you would not respond and now you do chrismarc a disservice. You should either respond to him or move to another thread. At least you are no longer plagiarizing quotes although I imagine you would if you had not been caught. I have already said you can't be converted in a forum. My contribution here was exposing a plagiarizer and I will leave it at that unless you want to dialogue in the context of the original post. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkieDannsa' Air An Drochaid Posted April 18, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,390 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 18, 2006 st. Worm On the contrary, you seem incapable of producing a single verse that prohibits infant baptism and you are doing the same thing to chrismarc that you did to me previously - and that is refusing to address his arguments. Its a great game you talk dear soul, but you have nothing to talk about. I am not surprised that you are not teachable on this subject. You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Putnam Posted April 18, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1929 Share Posted April 18, 2006 So far, I have not seen any references to the writings of the early church fathers on this subject, so let's see what we have: http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/infant.htm Some of the comments within need careful study, as one who has "served the Lord for eighty years" must have started from his infant baptism, followed with good upbringing in the faith by the parents, certainly a requirement in infant baptism. And while it is not absolutely necessary that a "household" contain adults including many children, this is highly unlikely. I think it stands as a powerful inference that infants were certainly included, be they at the suck, toddlers, or early teenagers. Back to the fathers: they are not scripture, of course, but they are a powerful thing to consider, they living close to the apostolic era, some even trained at the feet of an apostle or two... God bless, PAX Bill+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elihu's Girl Posted April 18, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 156 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted April 18, 2006 Great thread. I've learned a lot guys... I've been thinking about infant baptism off and on... so thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted April 18, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 18, 2006 horizoneast, Here is the obvious flaw in the arguments that MacArthur and you put forth. First, the very arguments that you both use by quoting established theologians who believe strongly in infant baptism can just as easily be used against you. Of course the theologians MacArthur names say there is no specific instance of infant baptism noted in "Holy Writ" as you call it. They readily admit that and yet they still believe the Bible teaches infant baptism! However, here is the rub. If MacArthur were as honest as the men he quotes, he would also admit that the Bible nowhere specifically says that infants SHOULD NOT BE BAPTIZED! Not even once! The doctrine of baptism DOES NOT rest on whether a specific infant baptism can be readily indentified or not. If we took that approach with all doctrines of the Bible, perhaps we should also not allow women to participate in Holy Communion since I don't know of a single instance of a woman taking the Lord's Supper in all of the Bible. The argument he and you put forth is not a solid method of interpretation as you can see. As far as church fathers go, can you go back further than St. Polycarp? He was a disciple of the Apostle John and was baptized as an infant. If the Apostle did not demand he be rebaptized as an adult upon his profession of faith, isn't that fairly reliable evidence that his infant baptism was legitimate and proper? I mean we are now talking about an Apostle commissioned by our Lord and Savior to spread the Good News and related doctrine of our Lord. If we cannot trust him, then who can we trust? Certainly not John MacArthur and his anabaptist ancestors from the 16th century. blessings, SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oh No Melon Posted April 18, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 45 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/14/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/20/1988 Share Posted April 18, 2006 (edited) Why have infant baptism? What is it's purpose? I have always understood baptism to be an outward sign of repentance, but infants are not able to repent. They are blameless before God. I believe we must first be sealed with the blood of Christ before we are baptized with water, that salvation and baptism go hand-in-hand (John 19:34), and both are personal decisions we each must make. Edited April 18, 2006 by Oh No Melon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted April 18, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 18, 2006 Oh No Melon, Have you ever read Luther's Catechism with Explanations and biblical references on the doctrine of baptism? I invite you to try it and perhaps you will get a better understanding of this important Sacrament of Christ's Church. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Putnam Posted April 18, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1929 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Oh No Melon, Have you ever read Luther's Catechism with Explanations and biblical references on the doctrine of baptism? I invite you to try it and perhaps you will get a better understanding of this important Sacrament of Christ's Church. sw I think all of the so called "Reformers" believed in infant baptism, it being first contested with the Anabaptists, who insisted upon rebaptism, even of adults who converted to them, as I understand it. Another issue, and explainatikon that may have already been mentioned in this thread is that infant baptism substituted for circumcision, which was imposed at about the same time in the infant's life. The beauty of baptism, of course, is that it included females as well. Another point: Good Christian parents, who understand the responsibilities of raising the Child in the Christian faith, are "charged" in the responsibility of doing so in the rite of baptism. An adult baptism has that adult given the responsibility of continuing in the faith. For infants, the parents take this responsibility until the age of reason and achieving of adulthood. For what that is worth... God bless, PAX Bill+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oh No Melon Posted April 18, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 45 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/14/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/20/1988 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Oh No Melon, Have you ever read Luther's Catechism with Explanations and biblical references on the doctrine of baptism? I invite you to try it and perhaps you will get a better understanding of this important Sacrament of Christ's Church. sw I haven't, but I wouldn't mind reading it whenever I get the chance. Could you please post a link? I'm open-minded to any doctrine providing it has biblical support. Actually, I've heard this subject debated before, and to be perfectly honest, I wasn't very impressed with some of the "pro" arguments. But I am willing to give it another shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tah Posted April 19, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,131 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/12/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 19, 2006 I did find it and read it but I did not see any scriptural references of His opinions.. and No..I am not claiming to be smarter than Luther..for I am not... I just have a different opinion.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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