Rapture

[eric]

ANY QUESTIONS?

Yes... why do so many Gentiles always try to place themsleves in the position of Gods people, when we already know that His people are the Jews and His Church are the Saints that return with Him in in the end to save the Remnant of His people?

Peace

CJ

The fact is that the Isrealites, through the bloodline of Abraham, then Jacob, were Gods chosen people to be an example to the rest of the world. They had a special purpose, but they failed. They were a chosen people to do a specific task. The task is to call others to repentence. The bible clearly shows that they failed at their mission. They didn't even recognize the Messiah!

Your statements here are in error, and constitute replacement theology. I suggest that you refer to this thread to see what replacement theology is:

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=51709

With that, I will comment here on your statements. The Israelites did not fail in their calling of God, as you claim . It was Jewish apostles who gave the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world, of which yu would not have your salvation without. So they did not fail. It was the leaders of Israel in the time of Jesus, the Pharisees and Saducees, and the Romans that put Jesus to death, and not the Jewish follows of Christ or the Jewish people. And Peter did recognize who Jesus was, as is recorded in the Gospel of Matthew, as did the rest of the apostles. All died a death of severe persecution and torture, except John to give the Gospel to the World. All were Jewish. The great Israelite, and apostle Paul, of the tribe of Benjamin, wrote most of the New Testament. The Jews were chosen and called out to be obedient to God's Word and demonstrate a light among the nations and brought the Gospel to the world. They were chosen and called out to be obedient, and hear God's word and record it. They were chosen to be the human channel for the Messiah. The entire Holy Scriptures was written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit by Israelites. The Jewish people did not fail, and have fulfilled the role for which they were called to do. God's relationship with Israel and the Jewish people is everlasting, as promised in His Word. And God is in the process of redeeming His Chosen People, the Jews.

My Web Blog

Well said, Toni!!

Agreed.

[TomPJr]

ANY QUESTIONS?

Yes... why do so many Gentiles always try to place themsleves in the position of Gods people, when we already know that His people are the Jews and His Church are the Saints that return with Him in in the end to save the Remnant of His people?

Peace

CJ

The fact is that the Isrealites, through the bloodline of Abraham, then Jacob, were Gods chosen people to be an example to the rest of the world. They had a special purpose, but they failed. They were a chosen people to do a specific task. The task is to call others to repentence. The bible clearly shows that they failed at their mission. They didn't even recognize the Messiah!

Your statements here are in error, and constitute replacement theology. I suggest that you refer to this thread to see what replacement theology is:

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=51709

With that, I will comment here on your statements. The Israelites did not fail in their calling of God, as you claim . It was Jewish apostles who gave the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world, of which yu would not have your salvation without. So they did not fail. It was the leaders of Israel in the time of Jesus, the Pharisees and Saducees, and the Romans that put Jesus to death, and not the Jewish follows of Christ or the Jewish people. And Peter did recognize who Jesus was, as is recorded in the Gospel of Matthew, as did the rest of the apostles. All died a death of severe persecution and torture, except John to give the Gospel to the World. All were Jewish. The great Israelite, and apostle Paul, of the tribe of Benjamin, wrote most of the New Testament. The Jews were chosen and called out to be obedient to God's Word and demonstrate a light among the nations and brought the Gospel to the world. They were chosen and called out to be obedient, and hear God's word and record it. They were chosen to be the human channel for the Messiah. The entire Holy Scriptures was written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit by Israelites. The Jewish people did not fail, and have fulfilled the role for which they were called to do. God's relationship with Israel and the Jewish people is everlasting, as promised in His Word. And God is in the process of redeeming His Chosen People, the Jews.

My Web Blog

you are correct in part. Especially about what you say the Isrealites were to do. very Good. But, it was the Jews Who wanted to crucify Jesus and let the thief on the cross go free. Remember, Pilate wanted to let Jesus go. He found no fault in him. He asked the people(the jews), because he wanted to please the people.

I do not have time at this moment to provide scripture, but there are plenty that support the fact that, all true Christians become spiritual Jews when they are adopted into the family of God.

[TomPJr]

ANY QUESTIONS?

Yes... why do so many Gentiles always try to place themsleves in the position of Gods people, when we already know that His people are the Jews and His Church are the Saints that return with Him in in the end to save the Remnant of His people?

Peace

CJ

The fact is that the Isrealites, through the bloodline of Abraham, then Jacob, were Gods chosen people to be an example to the rest of the world. They had a special purpose, but they failed. They were a chosen people to do a specific task. The task is to call others to repentence. The bible clearly shows that they failed at their mission. They didn't even recognize the Messiah!

Your statements here are in error, and constitute replacement theology. I suggest that you refer to this thread to see what replacement theology is:

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=51709

With that, I will comment here on your statements. The Israelites did not fail in their calling of God, as you claim . It was Jewish apostles who gave the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world, of which yu would not have your salvation without. So they did not fail. It was the leaders of Israel in the time of Jesus, the Pharisees and Saducees, and the Romans that put Jesus to death, and not the Jewish follows of Christ or the Jewish people. And Peter did recognize who Jesus was, as is recorded in the Gospel of Matthew, as did the rest of the apostles. All died a death of severe persecution and torture, except John to give the Gospel to the World. All were Jewish. The great Israelite, and apostle Paul, of the tribe of Benjamin, wrote most of the New Testament. The Jews were chosen and called out to be obedient to God's Word and demonstrate a light among the nations and brought the Gospel to the world. They were chosen and called out to be obedient, and hear God's word and record it. They were chosen to be the human channel for the Messiah. The entire Holy Scriptures was written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit by Israelites. The Jewish people did not fail, and have fulfilled the role for which they were called to do. God's relationship with Israel and the Jewish people is everlasting, as promised in His Word. And God is in the process of redeeming His Chosen People, the Jews.

My Web Blog

Christianity is a Jewish religion.

However I do not agree that the people Israel fulfilled their obligation, if they had, they would not have rejected Christ, you can't confuse the issue of what the Jewish religious leaderships obligation was to the people as opposed to the deciples chosen by God to bring forth the Gospel, they were not the Leadership of the Jews and therefore do not represent the Nation or People of Israel...the entire premesis of the Rejection of Christ as a whole is founded by the Jewish leadership rejecting Him.

The majority of Jews today do not view or recognize Jesus Christ as their Messiah. There is still speculation that Luke was a Gentile and although I do agree that Salvation comes from the Jews because Christ said so Himself, it is Gentiles who God has chosen to take out a people for His name. Just because most of the deciples and apostles were Jewish doesn't grant the people of Israel atonement for Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Mat. 12:22-30) even if they did die as martyrs.

The rejection of Messiah was a National Rejection and therefore repentance must also come Nationaly in order for Salvation to come to the Jews, for any Jew who is a non-believer (of Christ), he/she must be judged by the Law and no flesh shall be made justified by the Law. If Israel had been obedient there would be no need for a Second Coming, Christ would have immediately established his Davidic throne if the Religious leadership had accepted Him. John the Baptist would have also begun the Ministry of Elijah if they had accepted Christ, this is why Christ said (Mat. 11.14)"And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come" emphasis meaning if they had believed that Jesus was in fact the Messiah.

Mathew 23 is a testament to this fact, the entire chapter is dedicated to the denunciation and condemnation of the religious leadership of Israel, the Scribes and Pharasees. Condemnation from God Himself, those religious leaders were condemned to Hades as well as that entire generation with exception to a select few who actually accepted Christ.

Factually, it is Gentiles who far out number Jews when it comes to witnessing to the Word of God and to the Testament of Christ. This does not mean I am insinuating that Gentiles have overtaken the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant but have become partakers with the Jews in the blessings of Abraham. However, the Rejection was a must or else there could have been no way for the Gentiles to be saved, it was the Jewish Leadership that plotted the death of Christ to which the actual physical action of killing Christ came at the hands of Gentiles (Romans) thus breaking down the partition between Jew and Gentile through the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:11-16

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Gentiles partaking in the blessings of Abraham.

Romans 11:9-21

And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

The Gentiles are grafted into the blessings and cannot boast of the blessings themselves but of the root to which they have been grafted into. Very cautiously I might add, that God did not spare the natural branches which were Jews, so the grafted branches, Gentiles, equally have to fear that they could have the blessings removed as God has done. So in a weird way of expressing it, the Abrahamic Covenant is unconditionally conditional. Conditional to Faith...no Faith...No Covenant.

So the Jews who rejected Christ and those who do so to this day, cannot take part in that blessing because they are no longer obedient to God.

Getting back to the Rapture, the Rapture is to take the "Believers" All Gentile and Jewish believers out of Harms way as promised, the Great Tribulation is to break the will of the Jewish Orthodox and Apostate people and bring them to Repentance as a Nation for the transgression of the Holy Spirit by their forefathers.

People often argue against Rapture believers that the Second Coming is one event where it all happens...it just isn't so, in Mathew 24 when Christ first speaks of His coming and is specific to the taking of the evil doers and that they will be taken at a time that they will not be aware, Christ Himself then declares that in a similar manner the "Goodman" will also be taken in such an hour, at a time when He knows not that his Lord Cometh.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Clearly defining that there are events to take place which do not necessarily imply the Second Coming but do imply a "taking away" of the Good People at an unknown hour, that the battle of Armageddon is clearly where the 2nd Coming will take place, to establish the Judgment Seat of Messiah, in the Valley of Jehosephat will be the Location of His Second coming, the Rapture is quite distinct and clearly defined not as a Coming but a Taking Away.

No where in Scripture is it written that Christ cannot Take as He pleases nor can anyone imply that if He "Takes", it has to be considered His "Coming" .

Peace

CJ

Very well said about the Isrealites, Jews, and Gentiles. Right on Brother! However.... When you got back to the rapture, you are still off a little. You see, the bible doesn't say that they will be taken from the tribulation, but rather that they will be protected from it, just as daniel was protected from it in the lions den, and as the isrealites were protected from the plagues in Egypt. What an awsome witness that will be!

There is scripture to say that when Jesus takes up the people... it is his coming. When he comes back the first time, he will resurect the righteous, and all the alive in christ will meet him together in the air. Jesus does not touch ground. The wicked living are destroyed with the brightness of his coming. And the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years were finished. The righteous go to heaven for the 1000 years. After that Jesus, along with the righteous, come down from heaven with the new city. Then the resurection of the wicked takes place. The earth is desolate during the 1000 years and Satan is bound by circumstance during this 1000 years, because all the righteous throughout history were raptured, and the wicked were destroyed at his coming, and are not resurected untill after the 1000 years. He is bound to this earth. After the 1000 years Satan is released from his chains of circumstance when God resurects all the wicked throughout history. Then Satan gathers them together to try and take the great city.

I have much scripture to back this up if you or anyone else is interested. I didn't want to post too much right now though, and I don't have much time right now. feel free to send me a message if you would like the bible references.

tom

[TomPJr]

you are correct in part. Especially about what you say the Isrealites were to do. very Good. But, it was the Jews Who wanted to crucify Jesus and let the thief on the cross go free. Remember, Pilate wanted to let Jesus go. He found no fault in him. He asked the people(the jews), because he wanted to please the people.

I do not have time at this moment to provide scripture, but there are plenty that support the fact that, all true Christians become spiritual Jews when they are adopted into the family of God.

[kat8585]

No you will not find anything that remotely says Christians are "spiritual" Jews anywhere in the Holy Scriptures, and this is just another made up concept by the "church".

Except in Gal. 3.29, where it says "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

[TomPJr]

ANY QUESTIONS?

Yes... why do so many Gentiles always try to place themsleves in the position of Gods people, when we already know that His people are the Jews and His Church are the Saints that return with Him in in the end to save the Remnant of His people?

Peace

CJ

The fact is that the Isrealites, through the bloodline of Abraham, then Jacob, were Gods chosen people to be an example to the rest of the world. They had a special purpose, but they failed. They were a chosen people to do a specific task. The task is to call others to repentence. The bible clearly shows that they failed at their mission. They didn't even recognize the Messiah!

Your statements here are in error, and constitute replacement theology. I suggest that you refer to this thread to see what replacement theology is:

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=51709

With that, I will comment here on your statements. The Israelites did not fail in their calling of God, as you claim . It was Jewish apostles who gave the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world, of which yu would not have your salvation without. So they did not fail. It was the leaders of Israel in the time of Jesus, the Pharisees and Saducees, and the Romans that put Jesus to death, and not the Jewish follows of Christ or the Jewish people. And Peter did recognize who Jesus was, as is recorded in the Gospel of Matthew, as did the rest of the apostles. All died a death of severe persecution and torture, except John to give the Gospel to the World. All were Jewish. The great Israelite, and apostle Paul, of the tribe of Benjamin, wrote most of the New Testament. The Jews were chosen and called out to be obedient to God's Word and demonstrate a light among the nations and brought the Gospel to the world. They were chosen and called out to be obedient, and hear God's word and record it. They were chosen to be the human channel for the Messiah. The entire Holy Scriptures was written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit by Israelites. The Jewish people did not fail, and have fulfilled the role for which they were called to do. God's relationship with Israel and the Jewish people is everlasting, as promised in His Word. And God is in the process of redeeming His Chosen People, the Jews.

My Web Blog

you are correct in part. Especially about what you say the Isrealites were to do. very Good. But, it was the Jews Who wanted to crucify Jesus and let the thief on the cross go free. Remember, Pilate wanted to let Jesus go. He found no fault in him. He asked the people(the jews), because he wanted to please the people.

I do not have time at this moment to provide scripture, but there are plenty that support the fact that, all true Christians become spiritual Jews when they are adopted into the family of God.

You may have seen this in a Hollywood script, but it is not scriptural. It was the chief Jewish priests, who plotted against Jesus that convinced people to turn over Barabbas. Matthew 27

No you will not find anything that remotely says Christians are "spiritual" Jews anywhere in the Holy Scriptures, and this is just another made up concept by the "church".

Here's some more...

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches bee broken off, and thou being a wilde oliue tree wert graffed in amongst them, and with them partakest of the roote and fatnesse of the Oliue tree:

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches: but if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might bee graffed in.

Rom 11:20 Well: because of vnbeliefe they were broken off, and thou standest by fayth. Be not high minded, but feare.

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heede least hee also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Beholde therefore the goodnesse and seueritie of God: on them which fell, seueritie; but towards thee, goodnesse, if thou continue in his goodnesse: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they bide not still in vnbeliefe, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graffe them in againe.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the Oliue tree which is wilde by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good Oliue tree: how much more shall these which be the naturall branches, bee graffed into their owne Oliue tree?

[TomPJr]

No you will not find anything that remotely says Christians are "spiritual" Jews anywhere in the Holy Scriptures, and this is just another made up concept by the "church".

Except in Gal. 3.29, where it says "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Since this a Rapture discussion thread, kat... I will not derail it any further. But for the record, this does not mean nor imply Gentiles are "spritirual Jews", and this is a man-made concept. No where in the Bible are Gentiles referred to as "spiritual Jews". Jews are Israelites, not Gentiles. This verse taken from Galatians 3:29 merely says that Gentiles are grafted into the original covenant, promise and blessing that God started with Abraham and his natural seed, and simply joins Gentile Christians to what God had already started with Israel.

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?show...1709&st=280

You probably don't realize it tmrfiles, but you just agreed with Kat8585 and myself! That's exactly what we mean when we say spiritual Jew. Since the promise was originally for the Jews and was extended to the gentiles, the gentiles become part of the family.

Remember, the bible always relates the promise specifically to the seed of Abraham. Therefore you must be from his seed to claim the promise. We also know that the promise was extended to the gentiles....when Galations said " if ye be Christs, then ye are of Abrahams seed", it doesn't only mean physical seed. It is talking about grafting in by faith. If a branch from another tree is grafted into a second, then it becomes part of the second. Though we may not be Jews by blood, we become Jews by adoption. This is what is meant by spiritual Jew. Just for the record...no where in the bible does it say anything about Rapture either. This is a new term which we use to mean "caught up". Its the same with Spiritual Jew. It's just a new term with biblical roots.

[kenod]

Just for the record...no where in the bible does it say anything about Rapture either. This is a new term which we use to mean "caught up". Its the same with Spiritual Jew. It's just a new term with biblical roots.

Tom, you may know this already, but the Vulgate, a Latin translation of the Bible in 405AD, translated "caught up" in 1 Thes 4:17, by the word

[TomPJr]

Just for the record...no where in the bible does it say anything about Rapture either. This is a new term which we use to mean "caught up". Its the same with Spiritual Jew. It's just a new term with biblical roots.

Tom, you may know this already, but the Vulgate, a Latin translation of the Bible in 405AD, translated "caught up" in 1 Thes 4:17, by the word

[TomPJr]

Since this a Rapture discussion thread, kat... I will not derail it any further. But for the record, this does not mean nor imply Gentiles are "spritirual Jews", and this is a man-made concept. No where in the Bible are Gentiles referred to as "spiritual Jews". Jews are Israelites, not Gentiles. This verse taken from Galatians 3:29 merely says that Gentiles are grafted into the original covenant, promise and blessing that God started with Abraham and his natural seed, and simply joins Gentile Christians to what God had already started with Israel.

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?show...1709&st=280

Exactly, we become "partakers" in the blessings of Abraham not "takers over".

Peace

CJ

good way to put it...

so what's the fuss about? I don't recall anyone ever saying that the gentiles took over the promise, but tmrfiles keeps defending the Jews like somone did say that.