David from New Bern Posted May 3, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Share Posted May 3, 2006 Studying the Olivet Discourse as the basis of viewing the rest of Eschatological prophecy, Jesus tags the parable of the Fig tree with the statement, "...this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place..." It was popular to believe at one time that this was a reference to Israeli statehood and the fact that the generation that saw that will see the Second Coming. When 1988 come and went with no Biblical sized happening people stop quoting this verse. What is being referenced here in your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 3, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 3, 2006 My take on Matthew 24 is that it does not refer to the rapture and the 7 year tribulation. It is instead a reference to the entire "end-times" scenario that began at the fall of Jerusalem and will end at the final judgement when Christ returns. The illusion to the fig tree in Matthew 24:32-33 is not a reference to Israel, but a common observation that twigs get tender right before summer and arouse expectations. In the same way when all of these signs are observed, expectations for Christ's return should be heightened. Jesus warned His disciples of the course this age would take (Matthew 24:4-28) and that it would reach it's zenith with His return, not the rapture (29-31). I believe the generation Jesus was speaking of was the generation alive when He spoke. All that is required for verse 34 to be true is that the destruction of Jerusalem take place and that the general distress of verses 4-28 begin (they experience them). It does not demand that the return take place within that generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted May 3, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted May 3, 2006 Studying the Olivet Discourse as the basis of viewing the rest of Eschatological prophecy, Jesus tags the parable of the Fig tree with the statement, "...this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place..." It was popular to believe at one time that this was a reference to Israeli statehood and the fact that the generation that saw that will see the Second Coming. When 1988 come and went with no Biblical sized happening people stop quoting this verse. What is being referenced here in your opinion? Greetings David from New Bern, If you examine the text of Mt. 24 with all references to the Fig Tree in the Gospels, you will see that they reference Israel. You will find a parable about the Master visiting the Fig Trees which hadn't produced any fruit and that He was going to chop it down, but a plea was made to let the husbandman work on the trees for 3 years and then for the master to come again and if it did not produce any fruit, then He should chop it down. We also find a verse about the Kingdom taken from Israel and given to a "peoples" that WOULD PRODUCE FRUIT. In Mt. 24 Jesus then explains that when the Fig Tree begins to put forth leaves, that is "Israel has sprung up as a nation again". Notice that though Israel has been regathered, they have PRODUCED NO FRUIT. Also, Jesus speaks of that generation (the last generation of the Fig Tree) would not pass away until all those things in Mt. 24 would be completed. 40 years is what many took this to mean, but King David mentioned 70 years as the life span of man. So 1948 plus 70 years before that generation would PASS AWAY would be my best guess as to the outside date. Blessings, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted May 4, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted May 4, 2006 Christ is addressing his words to those he is speaking to. When he said this generation, he meant this generation. During their generation Jerusalem was destroyed. Greetings KatyAnn, Matth 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Then you must also believe that the resurrection/rapture occurred in that generation??? Blessings, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 4, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 4, 2006 Christ is addressing his words to those he is speaking to. When he said this generation, he meant this generation. During their generation Jerusalem was destroyed. Greetings KatyAnn, Matth 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Then you must also believe that the resurrection/rapture occurred in that generation??? Blessings, Dad Ernie I struggled with that as well, but I have come to the conclusion that 30-31 are not included in the "these things". I see a clear break in the Olivet discourse. The disciples thought of the destruction of Jerusalem and the return of Christ as a single event as is evidenced by the form of their questions in the gospels. Jesus warns them that there will be a delay that has as its main characteristic persecution for His followers, but will have a particularly violent episode that results in the destruction of Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15-21; Luke 21:20-34; Mark 13:14-20). At the end of this period of sustained persecution, Christ will return (Matthew 24:29-31). This passage really does not teach on the rapture, but describes the entire "last days" scenario. The warning in Matthew 24:32-35 is in reference to the whole tribulation period that begins at the ascension and ends at the return of Jesus. The tribulation period will certainly come, and the generation living when Jesus spoke these words would experience every aspect of it (including the fall of Jerusalem and persecution). His return, which marks the end comes after this period. The "these things" that Jesus refers to are defined in Matthew 24:33 even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Matthew 24:33 NASB So the "these things" do not include His return, but the signs that point to His return. They are there so we can regognize when it is near (just like the condition of the fig tree helps us undertand the seasons) Therefore when Jesus says: Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:34 NASB The "these things" He is speaking of are the same "these things" that Jesus was speaking of in v33. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 4, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 4, 2006 If you examine the text of Mt. 24 with all references to the Fig Tree in the Gospels, you will see that they reference Israel. I think this might be slightly overstated: Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you." John 1:43 NASB Clearly not a reference to Israel, but to an actual tree under which Nathaniel was sitting. Same with John 1:50 The context has to be the determining factor. It is simply not demanded here, but makes better sense as a sign of anticipation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David from New Bern Posted May 4, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted May 4, 2006 Here is my opinion...and heavy emphasis on the word "opinion"...I am aware we are dealing with an interpretative issue here...I am teaching Eschatology with a group of 30 in a weekly Bible study...So I am greatly concentrating on this and doing a lot of reading and slowly forming an opinion that is apt to change with new information. In Matthew 24, Jesus speaks to His disciples, who are convinced at this point of His Messiahship. They are looking for something to happen within the week (Daniel). The word "immediate" sticks out in my mind. Jesus is speaking to them on the Mount of Olives that is looking at the eastern greatly ordorned wall of Herod's temple. A disciple enjoying what he believes is about to be a historic moment, in which he is a player, comments on the beauty of Jewish national pride the temple. The excitement grows to the point of asking... when? Jesus who has been telling them your idea of the kingdom and my assignment are totally different. Jesus then destroys the moment saying we are not yet to the "Day of the Lord" there is a lot of suffering yet to come. First, that temple is going to be completely destroyed...Then Jesus is asked about the end of the age...The Temple comment is unrelated to the question the disciples asked about a time table. Then Jesus explains "birth pangs" that grow with frequency and intensity the closer it gets to it's due date in the mind of God. He then brings up the first specific sign in the midst of the Tribulation, which is the Abomination of Desolation. He then outlines the activities of intense persecution and natural disaster. Finally He mentions the signs in the sky that immediately precede Jesus stepping down onto the Mount of Olives to reign. Then the parable of the fig tree, that basically says read the signs which are specific and remember the warning and the promise and the glory to come. Then the comment in question "this generation will not pass away till all these things take place". Jesus earlier mentioned in verse 22 that it would be swift after the Abomination of Desolation, because if it wasn't brief there would be no life left and the atriocities unbearable. Again, in my opinion, He is saying the generations that see the development of the plan to this intense level will not be completely destroyed but supernaturally provided for as the sons and daughters of the promise (144,000 that generation) the remnant. He makes a reference to a future generation reading this for comfort and instruction in verse 15, (whoever reads, let him understand). And again a future audince reference in verse 35..."My words will by no means pass away." If there are any obvious holes in my exegesis please point them out to me? I'm here to learn from anybody and everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted May 4, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 4, 2006 Studying the Olivet Discourse as the basis of viewing the rest of Eschatological prophecy, Jesus tags the parable of the Fig tree with the statement, "...this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place..." It was popular to believe at one time that this was a reference to Israeli statehood and the fact that the generation that saw that will see the Second Coming. When 1988 come and went with no Biblical sized happening people stop quoting this verse. What is being referenced here in your opinion? hello david from new bern, these are only my thoughts on the matter for i do not know for sure i have studies all around these scriptures and am aware of all of the comments from others pertaining to this subject. But with time i sorta have a different view of my own. now you are studying the olivet discourse as your basis so i will stay with that theme as i give you my thoughts. First jesus had come into this world at the appointed time in history in which G-d the father had chosen for the messiah to be born and to fulfill his earthly mission which was to walk up the lonely hill of Golgatha to give his life for a ransom for many. Now our saviour was sent to the jewish people for he went to his own but his own received him not and in fact they crucified our lord and saviour not accepting him as messiah. They did this in spite of all the old testament prophecy that foretold of his coming. Now in my take the fig tree is symbolic of the nation of israel at that time in history when jesus went to his own people so they could be redeemed as he was the sacrificial lamb that was spotless. But the jewish people rejected him because he didn't come into this world in the way they thought he would and so would not receive the king of kings and lord of lords that came lo and riding on the colt of an ass. He had come into the world as the sacrifice and though he was the king he didn't come at that time in history to set up his kingdom here on this earth. So Israel as a nation was barren in the lord they had no fruit or belief in who jesus christ was and basically became useless to G-d so jesus cursed the fig tree in this regards and the fig tree withered away and died. And so it is with the jews to this day they have been blinded by their own belief and as a result of their rejection salvation has come to the gentile nations. So when jesus said "this generation shall not pass away till all be fulfilled" is concerned i think it was speaking to that paticular generation at that time when jesus was here giving his life as the sacrifice. now you have to be careful to rightly divide the word and in the passage in matthew there are other things being foretold as well that has to be seperated according to topic and must not all be jamed together. But that very generation that was alive when jesus walked this earth literally seen the fulfillment of all the signs that were written in the old testament being fulfilled right before their eyes pertaining to the messiah. As jesus said he didn't come to do away with the law but he came to fulfill it speaking of his sacrifice of his own body. The sign of Jonah the prophet was fulfilled as jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days and was resurrected which is what the sign of jonah was portraying when he was in the belly of the whale for three days and nights and then the fish spit him up. the veil of the temple was rent according to prophecy as they no longer needed the blood of bulls and goats for remission of sins they saw all these things fulfilled. They saw jerusalem destroyed and burned among so many other things. Our generation did not see those things fulfilled but yet we believe but our generation at this time in history sees others signs that are listed within that chapter if we are looking being fullfilled in our generation. In 1948 that generation saw Israel come back as a nation. but i think one has to look at things where they are taking place at according to what is being brought to pass at that particular place in history and rightly divide instead of jamming all the end-time events together it tends to give a distorted view. But jesus while on the cross said to that generation that it was finished. And in the future he will come in all of his glory and the whole world will see him as King of Kings and Lord of lords as foretold also in the prophets and in the book of Revelations. but these are just my thoughts and do not have to be accepted or debated. blessings Openly Curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted May 5, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted May 5, 2006 If you examine the text of Mt. 24 with all references to the Fig Tree in the Gospels, you will see that they reference Israel. I think this might be slightly overstated: Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you." John 1:43 NASB Clearly not a reference to Israel, but to an actual tree under which Nathaniel was sitting. Same with John 1:50 The context has to be the determining factor. It is simply not demanded here, but makes better sense as a sign of anticipation Greetings EricH, Some time back, probably before your time, we had a member on this forum who was very knowledgeable about the Jewish perspective of the scriptures. He has sadly since passed on, and we who knew (of) him and his posts miss him very much. But here is the gist of what He said about Nathaniel: In Jewish customs, it was common for Pharisees and religious men and leaders to sit under the "fig tree" and study and contemplate the scriptures. Thus the "fig Tree" came to represent Israel as they believe that Israel is the vineyard of God. So when Jesus said about Nathaniel, "in him there is no guile", Jesus made reference to "all Israel", again having an oblique reference to the "fig tree". Blessings, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted May 5, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted May 5, 2006 What is your take on v. 31 saying that the elect will be gathered from one end of HEAVEN to the other? 1 Cor 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Thess 4:14-17 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. THE RESURRECTION: Rev 11:11-112 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. As for a thousand year reign on earth, how does that line up with this verse. Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Please note that we shall "reign on THIS EARTH for 1,000 years WITH CHRIST". At the end of the 1,000 years, the New Jerusalem shall come down from heaven and the old creation will be rolled up like a garment and done away with. Blessings, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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