Smalcald Posted May 10, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted May 10, 2006 It is by standing with Israel, by showing our solidarity against ism, and against the enemies that call for her destruction that we demonstrate our love for them, among other things. It is one way of undoing 1700 years of Jews having to endure so much hatred, arrogance and moral indifference by so called "Christians." Well I agree with this statement. But let us have no illusions, neither the US nor our government is a Christian nation, we support Israel for the same reasons we support other countries, it has nothing to do with showing love for the Jewish people. No one in Israel or anywhere else will ever be converted by the US government or US foreign policy, in fact it has never happened. Now as individual Christians yes we can show our support and love for the Jewish people and nation by standing with Israel against ism. But unless we are willing to get of our collective buts and go volunteer to fight and die for Isreal personally, or be willing to send Israel money, than I find it rather lame that we whine about our government not doing enough. I feel no compunction to support one Secular Jewish group against another secular Jewish group over dividing or not dividing some parcel of land in Israel, God will sort that out, NOT my tax dollars. If the Jewish people in Israel decide to do that, that is their concern, they are an independent nation. We have no business meddling in their internal affairs, even if they are wrong, and I do not want them meddling in our internal affairs. I think there is tremendous opportunity to witness to non-observant Jews, which are the majority of Jews in the world. But I agree that it is hard, and we have a horrible history, but politics one way or the other will not solve it. I think that politically and militarily defending Israel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted May 10, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted May 10, 2006 Smalcald, I take your point, but from a non American point of view, I'm only suggesting that supporting Israel and the jews as a nation and God's people for whom we are commanded to pray,is one thing, but encouraging the jewish Govt, whoever is in control, to give some of the land to palastine, is encouraging them to contravene God's ordinances according to His promises to Abraham. Furthermore, Olmert is planning to didvide Jerusalem between the palastinians and the jews. He says we will share Jerusalem. Share Jeruslem?? I dont see that anywhere in the promise to Abraham. My only hope is that America does't rubber stamp the plan eric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted May 10, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted May 10, 2006 Smalcald, I take your point, but from a non American point of view, I'm only suggesting that supporting Israel and the jews as a nation and God's people for whom we are commanded to pray,is one thing, but encouraging the jewish Govt, whoever is in control, to give some of the land to palastine, is encouraging them to contravene God's ordinances according to His promises to Abraham. Furthermore, Olmert is planning to didvide Jerusalem between the palastinians and the jews. He says we will share Jerusalem. Share Jeruslem?? I dont see that anywhere in the promise to Abraham. My only hope is that America does't rubber stamp the plan eric. Ah, okay I can see your point on that. I would agree that as a government America needs to be very careful what we rubber-stamp. In some ways maybe we are overly involved? I mean what right do we have to go into Israel and tell them what to do, rubber stamping things so to speak throwing our weight around in that way? For me personally as a citizen of the United States, I want to see Israel with a guarantee of total security, meaning that America will never ever stand by and let Israel be overrun by one of the fanatical Arab nations which surround it. I do see the old anti-Semitism rising in Europe, when it comes to Israel, they cannot be trusted, I hope our country does not follow that path of having a double standard for Israel, which could happen with the wrong president in the White House. But I try to separate that desire out from my second desire for the conversion of the Jewish people to a faith in Christ as their savior. I think it might come down to a belief in our personal role in prophecy. I don't think we can impact the prophetic events Christ has ordained, we can only serve Christ and His Word by spreading His Word, what will be will be when it comes to the world and the nations of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Ah, okay I can see your point on that. I would agree that as a government America needs to be very careful what we rubber-stamp. In some ways maybe we are overly involved? I mean what right do we have to go into Israel and tell them what to do, rubber stamping things so to speak throwing our weight around in that way? I actually believe that our foreign aid to Israel actually impedes Israel's self defense. I believe that if we cut off our foreign aid to Israel, they would be less beholden to the US and the gloves would come off and they would give the Arab world the pasting they deserve. As it stands, they are too afraid to much if it might jeapordize the aid package. Israel does not need our aid package. They have a good economy and our aid only represents something like 3% of their GDP. It is not enough to argue that removal of our aid would be detrimental to their economy. Besides most of it is returned to us in the form of weapon sales. We can still sell weapons to Israel, but I would like to see them in a position where they could fight the Arab world unfettered by American interests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted May 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Yeah, I know what you mean Shilo. It is kind of a ponzi scheme in that the pol's get to say hey look at all of this aid we are giving to Israel, but then we make them take that aid and buy weapons systems from US defense contractors. I don't know do you think Israel would open things up against the Arabs right now? I certainly think they could do serious damage to most of them, but it might be like setting your own backyard on fire to get rid of a robber? I have a theological question for you though. What do you think our role, as individual Christians should be toward the activation of end time prophetic events? Should we be inserting ourselves into them, somehow acting as God's agents helping along what we believe God has ordained prophetically, or should we simply be watching and getting ready as we watch the fig tree blossom as Christ mentions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted May 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted May 11, 2006 What do you think our role, as individual Christians should be toward the activation of end time prophetic events? Should we be inserting ourselves into them, somehow acting as God's agents helping along what we believe God has ordained prophetically, or should we simply be watching and getting ready as we watch the fig tree blossom as Christ mentions? Greetings Smalcald, I am not Shiloh, but here is my response: Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Romans 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. God Bless, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 11, 2006 What do you think our role, as individual Christians should be toward the activation of end time prophetic events? Should we be inserting ourselves into them, somehow acting as God's agents helping along what we believe God has ordained prophetically, or should we simply be watching and getting ready as we watch the fig tree blossom as Christ mentions? Greetings Smalcald, I am not Shiloh, but here is my response: Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Romans 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. God Bless, Dad Ernie Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted May 12, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted May 12, 2006 What do you think our role, as individual Christians should be toward the activation of end time prophetic events? Should we be inserting ourselves into them, somehow acting as God's agents helping along what we believe God has ordained prophetically, or should we simply be watching and getting ready as we watch the fig tree blossom as Christ mentions? Greetings Smalcald, I am not Shiloh, but here is my response: Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Romans 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. God Bless, Dad Ernie Thanks for your response. But let me make sure I understand (I am slow sometimes). From the passages above our response to End time events should be our response for all times, to spread the Gospel of Christ, to the Jew and to the Greek to everyone, is that correct? I think what I was wondering is should we as individual Christians fight to ensure Israel performs the end time prophesies which are in scripture, should we be agents of prophetic events, pushing them along? Is that even possible and are we called to do that? Should we make it our mission from a theological point of view to help rebuild the temple for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted May 12, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Greetings Smalcald, But let me make sure I understand (I am slow sometimes). From the passages above our response to End time events should be our response for all times, to spread the Gospel of Christ, to the Jew and to the Greek to everyone, is that correct? Please read Romans 11. We are told that ALL Israel shall be saved, but not until the "fulness of the gentiles be come in" (and let me add - "to the Kingdom of God". The Lord has hardened their heart until that "fulness" occurs. But yes, we are given a commission to pull ALL from the fire, as much as God has enabled us. I think what I was wondering is should we as individual Christians fight to ensure Israel performs the end time prophesies which are in scripture, should we be agents of prophetic events, pushing them along? Is that even possible and are we called to do that? Should we make it our mission from a theological point of view to help rebuild the temple for example? Our duty is to be ready in season and out of season to give reason for the hope that is within us. We are to give aid to the poor, the widow and the fatherless. There is no restriction on this. This applies to everyone. There is no way we can hurry or push along prophetic events. They will occur in the timetable God has set. We can do nothing in this regards. Many, perhaps most Christians have a special love for Israel, not because they are inherently good, but even as God, because of their fathers through whom we received the Word of God, and even Christ Himself. We owe them a debt for all that God used them for and we should repay them by showing them "mercy", even as Romans 11 says. One day, God will soften their hearts and we need be prepared for that day by the good works of Christ. Blessings, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted May 12, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2006 America should not be involved in internal Israeli politics, anymore than Israel should be involved in the internal politics of the US. We should certainly help defend and protect one of the only democracies in the Middle East, and yes a country ordained to exist by God. However, if we cared about Israel we would spend less time worrying about these things and more time finding ways to help spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the lost souls of Israel that are living there today. These people are now doomed if they do not accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, regardless of what happens to their country. Sometimes it seems as if this geopolitical discussion takes us away from what is really important. I mean for an individual Jew living in Israel, it won't matter how God blesses their country, if he or she does not have faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior they are going to hell. Right now that is the vast majority of Jewish people living in Israel (although not all praise God for that!). Regardless of what we think of Sharon or any other leader of Israel and their politics, if Sharon dies he is likely going to spend eternity in hell, so how does anything that he did concerning Israel help him? Well it would be nice if it were that simple. It is by standing with Israel, by showing our solidarity against terrorism, and against the enemies that call for her destruction that we demonstrate our love for them, among other things. It is one way of undoing 1700 years of Jews having to endure so much hatred, arrogance and moral indifference by so called "Christians." I can imagine the same argument argument being proffered by Christians during the holocaust era: "Why do you care what the Germans do or don't to the Jews? You need to stop focusing on Nazi politics and just focus on spreading the gospel. Jewish people, at least the observant ones, live a deed oriented culture. Spreading the Gospel in traditional means simply doesn't work. It is not like witnessing to tree worshippers in the Congo. That is one thing that Christians just don't get. Evangelism among the Jewish people is simply not like anything else on earth when it comes to witnessing. The methods that work in Nigeria and S. Korea do not work in Jerusalem. Jewish people watch what you do. They could care less what you say, until they are satisfied that your life is agreement with your profession. Even then, they might listen, and they might not. Witnessing to Jewish people especially in Israel is hard. Like other unbelieving countries there are laws against public preaching and attempts to win Jewish people over to Christ. It is by standing in solidarity with the Jewish people, and by honoring God's covenant with Abraham, that we can hopefully undo centuries of hatred, torture and death done in the Name of Jesus. Hopefully we can gain inroads to share the Gospel once we have proven that we are true friends of Israel. Hello Shiloh I agree wholehearted with you on your statements here 100% as you've said it well Openly Curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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