David from New Bern Posted May 12, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Imprecatory is a rarely used word in contemporary language but is is a term used to describe the act of cursing or damning someone who is your adversary or nemise. David wrote 10 inspired psalms that are termed imprecatory. He ask God to pour out His wrath on his enemies and tormentors. His language is not laced with mercy but anger. Thse psalms are 5,11,17,35,55,59,69,109,137,and 140. Are these psalm an honest description of David's attitude and spiritual state and meant to help us identify with David's mind and struggle to bring us to a closer appreciation for the transparency of this "man after God's own heart"? Or are they prescriptive and in fact there to teach us how to pray with authority and power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted May 12, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2006 Imprecatory is a rarely used word in contemporary language but is is a term used to describe the act of cursing or damning someone who is your adversary or nemise. David wrote 10 inspired psalms that are termed imprecatory. He ask God to pour out His wrath on his enemies and tormentors. His language is not laced with mercy but anger. Thse psalms are 5,11,17,35,55,59,69,109,137,and 140. Are these psalm an honest description of David's attitude and spiritual state and meant to help us identify with David's mind and struggle to bring us to a closer appreciation for the transparency of this "man after God's own heart"? Or are they prescriptive and in fact there to teach us how to pray with authority and power? I think that many of the attitudes expressed in these psalms are permissible, and also inevitable for those who suffer persecution for Christ's sake. There are two qualifications, I think. One is that David lived in a different dispensation, when the honour and success of God was measurable by the honour and success of the political entity of Israel. So whereas it was more than legitimate for David to pray that his enemies would meet with disasters, which events were intended as a warning of God's terrible anger for all generations, it is legitimate for Christians to pray for the salvation of their enemies. Iow, it is not acceptable for Christians to pray for the death of the offspring of their persecutors by 'dashing against a stone', but it is very proper for everyone to realise that sin is deadly and that 'it is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of God.' The other consideration is that these and other psalms are quite often prophetic of Christ, so when, in Psalm 31 we read ' I hate those who cling to worthless idols; I trust in the Lord,' we do not take the same attitude- not yet, anyway. It is Christ whose attitude this is, as we see from the previous verse: 'Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O Lord, the God of truth.' What the persecuted Christian can take from these psalms is the knowledge that God still intervenes on behalf of His saints, for those 'after God's own heart', just as He did for David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted May 12, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 115 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 8,281 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/03/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/30/1955 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Certainly imprecatory prayer is sometimes in order, as when Paul cursed Elyamis the sorcerer with temporary blindness........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David from New Bern Posted May 12, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted May 12, 2006 Certainly imprecatory prayer is sometimes in order, as when Paul cursed Elyamis the sorcerer with temporary blindness........... What is the motivation check? What is the litmus test of purity in such a case? In the Scriptures we are given the advantage of being led through the narrative with insight to David's spiritual walk and that of his enemies. But, we also realize that much of David's adversity was self-inflicted or the consequences of his own bad decisions or familial leadership. How would I know that an imprecatory prayer is in line in a particular scenario, or if I'm just trying to get God's endorsement in conflict? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted May 12, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2006 Certainly imprecatory prayer is sometimes in order, as when Paul cursed Elyamis the sorcerer with temporary blindness........... What is the motivation check? What is the litmus test of purity in such a case? In the Scriptures we are given the advantage of being led through the narrative with insight to David's spiritual walk and that of his enemies. But, we also realize that much of David's adversity was self-inflicted or the consequences of his own bad decisions or familial leadership. How would I know that an imprecatory prayer is in line in a particular scenario, or if I'm just trying to get God's endorsement in conflict? The criterion was and remains love; the dispensation has changed, so the detail changes. But if in doubt, trial and error is fine. God will answer in the perfect way, no matter what we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David from New Bern Posted May 12, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted May 12, 2006 Certainly imprecatory prayer is sometimes in order, as when Paul cursed Elyamis the sorcerer with temporary blindness........... What is the motivation check? What is the litmus test of purity in such a case? In the Scriptures we are given the advantage of being led through the narrative with insight to David's spiritual walk and that of his enemies. But, we also realize that much of David's adversity was self-inflicted or the consequences of his own bad decisions or familial leadership. How would I know that an imprecatory prayer is in line in a particular scenario, or if I'm just trying to get God's endorsement in conflict? The criterion was and remains love; the dispensation has changed, so the detail changes. But if in doubt, trial and error is fine. God will answer in the perfect way, no matter what we do. Are we simply given the benefit of reading behind David who is working through anger by pouring out his emotions in transparent prayer and asking God to sort through his feelings? Or are his prayers the result of that process already concluded? Is he teaching us how to have an open honest prayer life or are we given a prescription for more powerful prayers by his bold request for God to take action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted May 12, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2006 Certainly imprecatory prayer is sometimes in order, as when Paul cursed Elyamis the sorcerer with temporary blindness........... What is the motivation check? What is the litmus test of purity in such a case? In the Scriptures we are given the advantage of being led through the narrative with insight to David's spiritual walk and that of his enemies. But, we also realize that much of David's adversity was self-inflicted or the consequences of his own bad decisions or familial leadership. How would I know that an imprecatory prayer is in line in a particular scenario, or if I'm just trying to get God's endorsement in conflict? The criterion was and remains love; the dispensation has changed, so the detail changes. But if in doubt, trial and error is fine. God will answer in the perfect way, no matter what we do. Are we simply given the benefit of reading behind David who is working through anger by pouring out his emotions in transparent prayer and asking God to sort through his feelings? Or are his prayers the result of that process already concluded? Is he teaching us how to have an open honest prayer life or are we given a prescription for more powerful prayers by his bold request for God to take action? David's requests are not bold at all; they are precisely what God intended him to ask, with exactly the same anger that God feels. If the saint does not also feel them, he is seriously backslidden, if he is a saint at all. One cannot be lukewarm about sin, in oneself or in others, but particularly when it is directed against the cause of righteousness, as we see in the Psalms. God intends the same sort of desire from the saints today, but in a very different context. God was jealous for the name of Israel, as it represented His own name. That meant that killing His enemies was a very, very good thing to do, and indeed to spare such persecutors as Amalekites, the dregs of humanity, was highly culpable. That is what David's predecessor discovered to his great cost. Today, killing God's enemies is very, very bad, and the Christian does not even contemplate such action. When saints today are persecuted, and anyone who is not persecuted is no saint, they pray for their persecutors. The right way to think about them is to imagine them as future brothers or sisters in Christ. Saul the venomous Pharisee was transformed into Paul the loving disciple and dear brother, and there is hope for most people. So imprecation is not really on the agenda, although one may ask God to intervene in cases of injustice, and he may indeed kill in order to glorify His name, even today. But that is strictly His business. The business of the saint, who is not all-knowing, is to love, to provide the soft answer to turn away wrath, to pour burning coals on the heads of enemies. The parallel with defence of the witness of Israel is found in defence of the church, which must exercise great care as to who is to be a member if it is to be a legitimate church. That does not mean that false teachers are executed, though! 'Get rid of the evil person' means 'Have nothing to do with' such persons. Dissociate also from all who accept false teachers and other obvious sinners who will harm the witness of the church. But do them no harm whatever. So if one is to make a parallel prayer to David's, one must pray for the leadership of one's local church, that it will have not only discernment to detect false teachers and evil persons, but also to have the courage to expel them. That is not bold, either. It is absolutely basic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David from New Bern Posted May 12, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted May 12, 2006 Certainly imprecatory prayer is sometimes in order, as when Paul cursed Elyamis the sorcerer with temporary blindness........... What is the motivation check? What is the litmus test of purity in such a case? In the Scriptures we are given the advantage of being led through the narrative with insight to David's spiritual walk and that of his enemies. But, we also realize that much of David's adversity was self-inflicted or the consequences of his own bad decisions or familial leadership. How would I know that an imprecatory prayer is in line in a particular scenario, or if I'm just trying to get God's endorsement in conflict? The criterion was and remains love; the dispensation has changed, so the detail changes. But if in doubt, trial and error is fine. God will answer in the perfect way, no matter what we do. Are we simply given the benefit of reading behind David who is working through anger by pouring out his emotions in transparent prayer and asking God to sort through his feelings? Or are his prayers the result of that process already concluded? Is he teaching us how to have an open honest prayer life or are we given a prescription for more powerful prayers by his bold request for God to take action? David's requests are not bold at all; they are precisely what God intended him to ask, with exactly the same anger that God feels. If the saint does not also feel them, he is seriously backslidden, if he is a saint at all. One cannot be lukewarm about sin, in oneself or in others, but particularly when it is directed against the cause of righteousness, as we see in the Psalms. God intends the same sort of desire from the saints today, but in a very different context. God was jealous for the name of Israel, as it represented His own name. That meant that killing His enemies was a very, very good thing to do, and indeed to spare such persecutors as Amalekites, the dregs of humanity, was highly culpable. That is what David's predecessor discovered to his great cost. Today, killing God's enemies is very, very bad, and the Christian does not even contemplate such action. When saints today are persecuted, and anyone who is not persecuted is no saint, they pray for their persecutors. The right way to think about them is to imagine them as future brothers or sisters in Christ. Saul the venomous Pharisee was transformed into Paul the loving disciple and dear brother, and there is hope for most people. So imprecation is not really on the agenda, although one may ask God to intervene in cases of injustice, and he may indeed kill in order to glorify His name, even today. But that is strictly His business. The business of the saint, who is not all-knowing, is to love, to provide the soft answer to turn away wrath, to pour burning coals on the heads of enemies. The parallel with defence of the witness of Israel is found in defence of the church, which must exercise great care as to who is to be a member if it is to be a legitimate church. That does not mean that false teachers are executed, though! 'Get rid of the evil person' means 'Have nothing to do with' such persons. Dissociate also from all who accept false teachers and other obvious sinners who will harm the witness of the church. But do them no harm whatever. So if one is to make a parallel prayer to David's, one must pray for the leadership of one's local church, that it will have not only discernment to detect false teachers and evil persons, but also to have the courage to expel them. That is not bold, either. It is absolutely basic. Pointer...enjoying reading your post...so don't merely take my questions as anything other than exploring your thinking...Scripture indicates David had some character flaws, but he owned them in a life of repentance which earned him the honor of being referred to "as a man after God's own heart". Scripture gives us an honest and revealing look at David's messed up life. He didn't always practice obedience, patience, and trust in his Lord. But, to his credit his failings grieved him greatly..."create in me a clean heart O God, renew a right spirit within me." So, I'm saying all this to say, "who is David to be giving God advice or directives?" Is he working through what God's will is and becomes of one mind with God after a season of prayer and devotion? or Is pouring out his anger (righteous indignation or self-centered anger?) in a prayer of cleansing asking God to sort through his emotions and examine his heart. David, did this often in his writings, but is he doing that in these imprecatory psalms? According to how we answer these questions determines how imprecatory prayers fit into our closet time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jckduboise Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Imprecatory is a rarely used word in contemporary language but is is a term used to describe the act of cursing or damning someone who is your adversary or nemise. David wrote 10 inspired psalms that are termed imprecatory. He ask God to pour out His wrath on his enemies and tormentors. His language is not laced with mercy but anger. Thse psalms are 5,11,17,35,55,59,69,109,137,and 140. Are these psalm an honest description of David's attitude and spiritual state and meant to help us identify with David's mind and struggle to bring us to a closer appreciation for the transparency of this "man after God's own heart"? Or are they prescriptive and in fact there to teach us how to pray with authority and power? What is Imprecatory Prayer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tah Posted May 12, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,131 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/12/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2006 Boy I have wanted to say a few of those at times but God has not let me to date... All kidding aside , I would need to hear the Lord speak to me to pray in such a manner and know with all my heart it was indeed the Lord and not my own desire to get back or even..or even for justice sake.. jck... Imprecate---to pray harm upon...invoke evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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