Frisbinator Posted May 13, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/18/1980 Share Posted May 13, 2006 Does anybody know how a Christian can justify going to war? Doesen't it contradict Jesus' teachings? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marnie Posted May 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 811 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 7,338 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/06/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2006 When somebody is pointing a gun in my direction, I dont have to for philosphical questions. In the Kingdom...I'll be ready to turn the other cheek. But if you must, here are the principles of the "Just War": A just war can only be waged as a last resort. All non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified. A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority. Even just causes cannot be served by actions taken by individuals or groups who do not constitute an authority sanctioned by whatever the society and outsiders to the society deem legitimate. A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered. For example, self-defense against an armed attack is always considered to be a just cause (although the justice of the cause is not sufficient). Further, a just war can only be fought with "right" intentions: the only permissible objective of a just war is to redress the injury. A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable. The ultimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace. More specifically, the peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought. The violence used in the war must be proportional to the injury suffered. States are prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the injury suffered. The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Civilians are never permissible targets of war, and every effort must be taken to avoid killing civilians. The deaths of civilians are justified only if they are unavoidable victims of a deliberate attack on a military target. You may also go here for a good treatment of the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted May 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2006 Hi Fris! Christians are obligated to avoid violence whenever possible, but we are not to allow injustice. Marnie gave a good outline of the "just war" doctrine. There are a few Scripture verses to support the fact that, at times, war will be unavoidable. Ecclesiastes 3: 1-8 "For everything there is a season.....a time to kill and a time to heal.....a time for war, and a time for peace". Luke 3:14 When soldiers asked John what they should do, he allowed them to keep their positions, but instructed them to not lie or steal. Romans 13:4 Paul instructs the church at Rome that they should obey authoritites. He states, "...he (one who is in authority)does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute His wrath on the wrongdoer". This seems to imply that God uses those in power to carry out His justice. Jesus does say, "blessed are the peacemakers"; that is our ultimate goal. Peace, Fiosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkieDannsa' Air An Drochaid Posted May 14, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,390 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2006 Dear frisbinator, There are Christians who do not justify war and who do not participate. It is a matter of conscience God-ward. Not all believe it is right to go to war. Jesus asked that we turn our swords into plowshears and learn war no more. We are told, thou shall not kill. Some would not fight at all. Some will fight only in matter of self defense. Some do go to war. Some are very active in peace efforts and helping others. You will find that Christians are not all in 100% agreement on this. take care, elkie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giaour Posted May 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 179 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,941 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/08/1964 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Marnie, This is the only part of your post that I question. "A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success." There were several wars fought in the Bible that "seemed" impossible to win. The walls of Jericho come to mind. They had no chance of success until they prayed for God to help them. Elke, We are told not to "murder". If we were told not to kill we would have died of starvation by now. I know it's a technicality and a fine line between "kill" and "murder" but there is a difference in motive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkieDannsa' Air An Drochaid Posted May 14, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,390 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2006 Giaor, I have heard this before. It is a fine line I don't want to walk. I don't think people have exhausted all means of peaceful attempts together in any way. I was though, simply stating that not all Christians will agree. take care, elkie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted May 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted May 14, 2006 I don't think people have exhausted all means of peaceful attempts together in any way. Greetings Elkie, Marnie gave a pretty good outline as has been said. This statement you make leads me to believe you are a pacifist, totally against war. A current situation involves Islam and the Palestinians who have sworn to destroy Israel. Iran recently made this same pledge - another Islamic country. In the Islamic traditions, agreements will be made with absolutely no intention of keeping them. They lull their adversary into a state of relaxation and infiltration by Islam will occur until they win their war - against Israel and against Christians. Now what would you have done about the 6 million Jews that were killed by Germany? It took a long time before the west took up their arms and defeated Hitler. Do you accept that? Would you defend the defenseless? Would you protect your child or other loved one if some real baddies planned hideous things for them? We live in a broken world that won't be restored until Christ's reign on this earth. At one time Jesus even told his disciples to take a sword with them on their ministry. Now why would Jesus do that? Because all along their journey their were thieves and rabble raisers. How is it that God would allow Elisha to send a bear to attack a bunch of young kids who called him baldy? If you think differently, then you had better reconsider whether you know Christ or not. Blessings, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cephas Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Pretty much my take on it is this, I'm a pacifist and a peacemaker, which means I will do everything I can to find a good peaceful solution, IF ONE IS POSSIBLE. There are a few conditionals I do keep in mind though. If it affects only me, I am more than willing to 'turn the other cheek' and take my lumps. I can always heal later and if I die for the faith, well it just earns me more reward in heaven. If it means keeping a helpless person from being hurt, I will use force IF I can find no good solution. However I also won't 'sell out' the helpless person just to keep the peace. Sadly, there are times when force is the lesser of two evils, even lethal force. But we should use discernment and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to decide the best course. and for whoever posted it, the Commandment "Do Not Kill" does not refer to animals, only to humans, and it refers to murder, not self defense or execution of criminals or the slaughter of animals for food. You are allowed to kill animals for food or self defense. though I think killing for sport or excitement could be questionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constant Posted May 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 128 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,946 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/06/1979 Share Posted May 14, 2006 To me, going to war because one thinks it is fun isn't right. Going to war because it is nessessary to me is right. I could be bias because of the occupation me and my husband hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marnie Posted May 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 811 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 7,338 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/06/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2006 Marnie, This is the only part of your post that I question. "A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success." There were several wars fought in the Bible that "seemed" impossible to win. The walls of Jericho come to mind. They had no chance of success until they prayed for God to help them. Good point! But my thoughts were tempered by studying the issue as simply as possible. In a general sense, it is crazy to attempt something that you have no chance of succceeding at; the word foolhardy comes to mind. You are, of course correct in the case of the battle of Jericho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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