Prove it!

[littlejoe]

My friend,You cannot please God without faith, If you don't believe He exist, there is nothing I am going to write to convince you. I don't have to prove to anyone my God exists, It is your loss not mine. If you want to talk about the Love of God,shown to us in Christ Jesus, I am quite sure there will be a great deal of people who will share their faith with you. Love in Christ littlejoe

[Christian]

ma1zraa, Thank you for answering my question.

I , unlike some of my brothers and sisters here, dislike the "intellectualization" and "exegeses" of people that come in here seeking "proof" of God, I find it unnecessary and insulting. Your quote below quite frankly is disrespectful to Christains (whose site your on), and particularly disrespectful to God (and Christ) whom we DO worship.

I wish to find out what is it that gives people their fervent faith, as I envy their conviction and trust. I know it can't be scripture alone, and in fact, scripture is a very poor argument I am afraid for trying to prove the nature of god, as it is written by man (and I know that some believe it to be divinely inspired revelation, but this attribute of scripture is, once again, given to it by man).

It is not "believed" to be divinely inspired revelation, IT IS !!! The fact that you can't believe that does not diminish it's standing.

So, unless reasonable proof is presented to prove that scripture is indeed divinely inspired (which would, via proxy, prove the existence of a deity), scripture cannot, and will never convince a student of reason of anything, let alone the existence of a omnipotent god.

Not much convinces a "student of reason" anything, much less the truth about our glorious God, as they are tossed about to and fro by any new "proof" that may confound their original "proof". We are rock solid in our beliefs, you might learn something from THAT.

May this Scripture soak into your heart.....

1 John 4:5-17

They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Again, forgive me if I seem curt.

But I do not take this disrespect of my God's credibility or sovereignty lightly.

Mercy and peace to you

in His service

-CC-

[nebula]

Show me that there is more of a reason for god to exist than say... a teapot orbiting Mars.

This is what I don't get.

Evidence is strongly in favor of showing that humans millenia ago believed in the spiritual realm and some form of deity or deities - basically, evidence of some religious belief or another.

Religion played a key role in human lives and civilizations from primitive societies, through ancient societies, and even through modern societies.

The first time I know of that the existence of any diety(ies) has been challenged was with the Greek et al philosophers; but even with them over time there was a reversion to belief in a supreme being or power or essence.

So, basically, the non-belief in "God" is a challenge to prevailing human thought.

The burden of proof is on the challenger. It's always been that way.

Why should this be any different?

[redeemed098]

"Without faith it is impossible to please God for he who comes to God must believe that he IS and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him."

God has dealt with the souls of men through the work of Christ on the cross. To believe you can please God apart from acceptance of Christ is denial of what God has done for you. You may be a person who offers all you have to charity and spend every waking moment pouring out your life for others. Friend...You are NOT pleasing to God. What you are doing for these people can definitely be seen as a form of good works, but the problem is NOT that your works arent good.

Its plain and simple that though you may do good works, you are NOT a "good" person. You may clothe the homeless man, but without the gift of salvation you have left him to die anyway. You may have poured money into cancer research, but without the gospel of Christ, they will perish eternally anyway...What have you done..? Nothing..! Youve given them maybe a few more years yet sentenced them to eternity without Christ...How "good" is that....! The message of Gods grace must always accompany the works of the man, and the works of the man can NEVER earn Gods favour...Gods favour can however be seen in the man who knows he is already saved by the Grace of God through the work of Christ on the cross. The good works flow OUT of a right relationship with God and not merely from an attempt to be pleasing to God and earn his favour. The only way you will ever find Gods favour on your life is by believing upon and accepting the one he has sent...Jesus.

God through Christ has offered forgiveness of sins. If you reject Christ, you have rejected Gods forgiveness and remain UNforgiven.

All that remains for you is the judgement seat of God. And the judgment is not opportunity to defend yourself....It is the day of sentencing where God will call to account every word and deed you have spoken and done while in the body. Even those secret things no one knows about, "for there is nothing that is hidden that will not be revealed". Nothing throughout your entire life has been hidden from Him to whom you must give an account. That is why it is a good idea to settle OUT of Court. You live in the days of Gods mercy and grace, but his wrath WILL be poured out on ALL sin. Just as in the days preceeding the flood, they laughed at Noah and thought he was crazy. Today many are laughing at Jesus the only hope for their salvation. "Today is the day of salvation." You want to die without Christ..? Then read Luke Chapter 16:19-31 to see what happens to a man when he dies....WITH CHRIST and withOUT Christ. And this isnt even the final judgement seat. It's just the Holding cell before God sends you off to the penetentiary...

Judge yourSELF according to Gods 10 Commandments and see if theres anything you need to repent of....Then receive Jesus as Gods offer for the forgiveness of your sins because "there is no other name given under heaven by which a man MUST be saved." The 10 Commandments friend will reveal what sin IS, and show you the need of the saviour.

Jesus said this...."I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the father except by ME."

Did you hear that...? Not only is he the WAY to the father, but he is also the TRUTH.....Now focus on this.....The Truth is not an idea or a philosophy, it is not an idol or an false god....The Truth is a PERSON....His name is Jesus...If you are a seeker of knowledge and wisdom, then you will find ALL knowledge and wisdom when you have a personal encounter with Christ....This knowledge however is not a diminishing and useless knowledge..It is an eternal knowledge. 'The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom." Only the beginning...Theres more, MUCH more when God is your refuge and your salvation. Dont seek temporary pleasures that are here for one day and gone the next...Seek eternal value...after all, "God has placed eternity in the hearts of all men." Now you get to decide where you will spend it...Whether there IS an eternity is not in question...Where you desire to live it...IS...!!

Be intellectually honest with yourself about the True state of your soul before God. Challenge yourself with Gods standard of what it is to be "good". The 10 Commandments.

Remember.The Liar has his place right next to the murderer in the very same lake of fire...Test yourself...are you good by Gods standard ? or is it a standard of your own you are judging yourself by...? You know what to do...? "What then must we do to be saved..?" ANSWER: "Repent and be baptised into the name of Jesus for the remission of your sins and you will receive the Holy Ghost." Gods very own spirit indwells you so that you are able to Live the life of a Born again believer, daily being transformed from who you are NOW into who you will be "In Christ." You dont lose your identity as an individual created by God. You find your TRUE identity "In HIM."

Regards,

Ben.

Edited May 20, 2006 by redeemed098

[apothanein kerdos]

You exist, and I mean this in more than just a naturalistic manner. You describe yourself as a "naturalist humanistic athiest." This means you:

1) Took the time to study your own origins

2) Took the time to figure out why you are the way you are

3) This means you had some drive to figure out why are the way you are

The problem is, you still haven't come up with adequate answers. Naturalism does not (and cannot) explain the human experience...next time you love, enjoy, hate, or feel any other emotion, you have proven that your method of belief cannot work.

[ma1zraa]

Show me that there is more of a reason for god to exist than say... a teapot orbiting Mars.

This is what I don't get.

Evidence is strongly in favor of showing that humans millenia ago believed in the spiritual realm and some form of deity or deities - basically, evidence of some religious belief or another.

Religion played a key role in human lives and civilizations from primitive societies, through ancient societies, and even through modern societies.

The first time I know of that the existence of any diety(ies) has been challenged was with the Greek et al philosophers; but even with them over time there was a reversion to belief in a supreme being or power or essence.

So, basically, the non-belief in "God" is a challenge to prevailing human thought.

The burden of proof is on the challenger. It's always been that way.

Why should this be any different?

Firstly, a simple majority does not even begin to denote validity or truth. If that were true, then UFO's would be a fact, and water would be Banned. Just because a concept is ancient and popular, it does not mean it is true. Secondly, the burden of proof is never supposed to be placed on the challenger, because that would allow all manner of logical fallacies.

[ma1zraa]

All right! This is exactly the kind of discourse I was hoping for. Thank you all for giving me such intelligent comments. I now see where you can, with philosophical backing, trust in the existence of a god. However, I am still curious- what makes the Christian definition of god more reliable than the definition presented by other popular religions? Christ's message is a good reason, however, Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism (to name a few) all also preach similar messages to further the happiness and ethical development of theire adherents. Once you embrace the concept of religion, why chose Christianity?

It's a good question isnt it..? Why choose Christianity...? The only real answer that one can give when asked the question, Why Christianity? What do you find in Christianity that you cannot find in any other religion is...Christ. You find Christ. Christianity is centred around Christ, the forgiveness of a mans sins made possible through the work of Christ on the cross. The grace of God in making atonement for our sins by choosing to be merciful to the subjects of his wrath.

Every other form of religion relies on a form of works that a person is able to achieve a status of being right with God through the undertaking of adherence to a set of laws or self imposed rules. As if we by our own doing are able to undo the wrongs we have committed in our lives. The basic problem with a mans sinful nature is that it is impossible for a man to be intellectually honest with himself about the true state of his very own soul before God, should God be the ultimate Judge. You see God has chosen to deal with souls of men in a very different way to what a man would like to believe...God does not deal with a mans soul through the door of reason or intellectualism. He goes so far as to say, "if any man thinks he is wise he ought to become a fool." "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing." He also says that "the wicked through the pride of their countenance do not seek God, there is no room in all their thoughts for God." A man is an enemy of God and is dead to God until he is Born again of the Spirit. This is Gods way of reconciling men back to himself. He does this through Jesus. You must remember that for the measure of forgiveness God has offered to be validated through the work of Christ, it is essential that Jesus IS God. Otherwise we are going to merely a stranger to receive forgiveness for sins against God. You can only be forgiven by the one whom you have committed the offense against..True..?

Asking questions based on a false premise of who God IS serves only to attempt to justify ones self by condemning God. There is nothing wrong with God. It is WE who are sinners. Jesus said these words. "I came not for the righteous but for the sinner." This is not Jesus way of saying only the sinner needs saving. He is saying that for one to be saved he must swallow his pride and humbly come before God in an attitude of repentance. "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." If you arent a sinner then Jesus didnt come for you. You cannot come to God with a wrong perception of who he IS...We are all sinners and all deserving of Hell because we are sinners. "The wages of sin is death, but the gift from God is eternal life through Christ Jesus.

The truth here is this. You can be absolutely certain that you stand before Jesus on Judgement day. If he is not your Lord and saviour, he will be your Judge. "for every knee shall bow and every tongue WILL confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the father." Today is the day of salvation. Today is the time of grace and mercy before the time of Judgement. Gods mercy always precedes his judgement, and he is the Perfect Judge...There will be no excuses. God will lay everything bare for you to see, even the secrets that no one else knows about.

Hell awaits the man who dies Christless...Why..? Because without Gods forgiveness you have chosen to carry your lifetime of unforgiven sins on your own back for all eternity...You are challenging God to judge you by the laws, the 10 Commandments..which you have already broken....Do not be fooled either..If you think that Gods laws are not important to HIM, then I beg you to look at the Christ on the cross. Whipped, beaten, bloodied and tortured. That was the wages of sin. It should have been you and I. Thanks be to God for his amazing grace.

In summing up, the other religions try to earn Gods favour....Christianity simply receives it as the gift that it IS...Christ is Gods righteousness. In HIM, we become the righteousness of God. Buddha, and Mohammed were sinners.. Jesus was withOUT sin.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Ben.

I understand where you are coming from. I can see why all your arguments make sense to you. However, you are using the subject as proof of itself. To say that Christianity is the true religion because it offer's Christ's forgiveness engages in a logical fallacy. It uses the ideas believed in as validation for the inital belief: like saying that I can believe in a secret parallel universe, because that is the only place to escape the horrors of the modern world. Just because it is a nice thing to think about, it isn't necessarily true.

Your point about all religions save Christianity being law based is untrue, I am afraid. Buddhism offers no such thing as law, only the concept of suggestions to make all life better. It does not threaten its adherents with hell for disobedience, simply unhappiness as the direct result of their actions. There is no concept of "doing wrong", only doing things that hurt yourself and others. I apologize for having to attack bits of your reply, but it was still an eloquent post, and I enjoyed reading it. Thank you very much.

[ma1zraa]

ma1zraa, Thank you for answering my question.

I , unlike some of my brothers and sisters here, dislike the "intellectualization" and "exegeses" of people that come in here seeking "proof" of God, I find it unnecessary and insulting. Your quote below quite frankly is disrespectful to Christains (whose site your on), and particularly disrespectful to God (and Christ) whom we DO worship.

I wish to find out what is it that gives people their fervent faith, as I envy their conviction and trust. I know it can't be scripture alone, and in fact, scripture is a very poor argument I am afraid for trying to prove the nature of god, as it is written by man (and I know that some believe it to be divinely inspired revelation, but this attribute of scripture is, once again, given to it by man).

It is not "believed" to be divinely inspired revelation, IT IS !!! The fact that you can't believe that does not diminish it's standing.

So, unless reasonable proof is presented to prove that scripture is indeed divinely inspired (which would, via proxy, prove the existence of a deity), scripture cannot, and will never convince a student of reason of anything, let alone the existence of a omnipotent god.

Not much convinces a "student of reason" anything, much less the truth about our glorious God, as they are tossed about to and fro by any new "proof" that may confound their original "proof". We are rock solid in our beliefs, you might learn something from THAT.

Again, forgive me if I seem curt.

But I do not take this disrespect of my God's credibility or sovereignty lightly.

Mercy and peace to you

in His service

-CC-

I am afraid that human reasoning and intellect, as Aristotle believed, is the only thing that gives us a mind different than the beasts that walk the earth. To suggest that the nature of god is completely adverse to that reality suggests that we are not his children. A god that is utterly beyond reason is a god that is utterly alien to the human spirit.

To throw around big, sweeping, capitalized statements like scripture "IS" divinely inspired requires a bit more evidence than none. I can scream as loud as I want that my fantasy novels are the direct writings of god, and it doesn't matter how loud I scream or whether 5 billion people scream along side me: it doesn't make it true. Anyone can produce a big, lengthy religous text. What makes yours better than the next guys? [Hint: it isn't because you "have faith", because be sure that he has it too] I am sorry that you are offended by what I ask, but I will not apologize for making neutral, tolerant, and simply philosophical inquests into the nature of religion.

[Christian]

I am sorry that you are offended by what I ask, but I will not apologize for making neutral, tolerant, and simply philosophical inquests into the nature of religion.

One does not do that by walking into someones "church" and denouncing what others consider sacred. You cannot expect to come to a Christian site, throw our Scriptures on the ground and stand on them claiming your superiority over them. That is not neutral in my eyes.

Give me actual"proof" that you're full after you've eaten

Give me actual "proof" that you're in love

Give me actual "proof" that equestrians love horses

Give me actual "proof" of the exact temperature of the sun

I need not give you proof that God exists, to the contrary, as others have said here, give me proof that He doesn't.

1Corinthians 1:18-25

For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God.

For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the understanding of the perceiving ones."

Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the lawyer of this world? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom did not know God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.

For the Jews ask for a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom;

but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, and to the Greeks foolishness.

But to them, the called-out ones, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and the weak thing of God is stronger than men.

God Bless

in His service

-CC-

[ma1zraa]

I am sorry that you are offended by what I ask, but I will not apologize for making neutral, tolerant, and simply philosophical inquests into the nature of religion.

One does not do that by walking into someones "church" and denouncing what others consider sacred. You cannot expect to come to a Christian site, throw our Scriptures on the ground and stand on them claiming your superiority over them. That is not neutral in my eyes.

Give me actual"proof" that you're full after you've eaten

Give me actual "proof" that you're in love

Give me actual "proof" that equestrians love horses

Give me actual "proof" of the exact temperature of the sun

I need not give you proof that God exists, to the contrary, as others have said here, give me proof that He doesn't.

1Corinthians 1:18-25

For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God.

For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the understanding of the perceiving ones."

Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the lawyer of this world? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom did not know God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.

For the Jews ask for a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom;

but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, and to the Greeks foolishness.

But to them, the called-out ones, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and the weak thing of God is stronger than men.

God Bless

in His service

-CC-

I am neutral because I do not seek to oppose anyone for any other reason than the pursuit of truth. If I am not neutral, than what is your definition of neutral? I do not claim myself to be superior to your scripture, however I do claim proper reason and logic to be superior to all forms of dogma. I came to a Christian site because I thought that Christians would have logical reasons to back up their faith, and I was curious to see them.

I am afraid all of that is very poor logic. You needn't become angered at what I say, I mean no disrespect, I merely am trying to get an intellegent convesrsation to flow. Your three comments about fullness, horses and love are all quite different than the concept of god. To propose that god exists is to make a very important and sweeping declaration about the external universe. It is a statement about the state of the world, the world outside of one's own free consciousness. The three comments, however, are all statements about one's own internal universe. The fact that I love someone does not affect the actual state of the world. As well, I can, over time, decide to change any of those things. They are not truths, but feelings and emotions. Nothing tangible exists out of mere emotion. Emotion can drive tangible beings, but a tangible being cannot exist solely due to emotion. The fourth statement is irrelevant both because the temperature of the sun is not static and because we CAN prove the temperature of a given spot at a given time. We know the emission spectra of hydrogen isotopes and helium-4, and using simple equations based on the energy of infrared photons emitted by the sun, we can gauge its temperature. Math is quite different than philosophy.

The main flaw to your logic is the burden of proof logical fallacy. If the burden of proof rested on the accuser, then it allows for all kinds of silly presumptions. After all, if the burden lay upon the accuser, then we could assume that all people who claim to have seen ghosts have, because we can't prove that they haven't. We could assume that all people who believed in alien abductions are correct, because we can't prove they weren't abducted. To base one's faith in god on a logical fallacy is a dangerous thing in my mind.