Scripture and Tradition

[Michael333]

Theory #1

The whole of Christian truth is found within the Bible

[gypc]

2 Peter 1: 3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Scripture is enough..............however christian writings that agree with the Bible are just fine.

[Guest lnj]

Theory #1

The whole of Christian truth is found within the Bible

[JMJ]

I would say that I'm in favor of Theory 2. I would argue that 2 Tim. 3:16-17 would not prove the idea of authority resting in Scripture alone. First it is important to look at verse 16. It says,"All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, etc." It does not say,"Only scripture...." If it said "Only Scripture" then there would be a case for the authority to rest in Scripture alone. Also in verse 15 St. Paul writes, "And that from a child thou has known the holy scriptures....."In St. Paul's day the New Testament was not canonized. Through logical deduction this would mean that only the OldTestament would be sufficient to the exclusion on the New. I'm not willing to take the leap and dismiss the New Testament.

You are right in saying that in the Early Church they had to rely on oral tradition. In 2 Thess 2:15 we read, "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." Notice that St. Paul did not give a time table as to when the faithful can get rid of Tradition and rely on the Scripture alone. It is also interesting to note that the Lord not only taught Tradition but He also bound His listeners to Tradition. We read in Mat.23:1-3, "the scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." Now "Moses' seat" is found nowhere in the O.T. This must have been a tradition that was passed down.

As to the authority of the Church"Mageterium" the Scriptures have some pretty interesting things to say. In Mat.18: 17 we read, " And if he shall neglect to hear them tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." If Scripture is the only authority it is odd that the Lord did not say that the Scripture is the last and only authority in this verse. Also 1 Tim. 3:15 calls the Church the, "pillar and foundation of the truth." Scripture nowhere designates itself under that phrase.

It is evident that the Scriptures are not the only authority but points also to Tradition and the authority of the Church. There are other verses in the Scriptures that point this out but due to time I cannot quote them all here. You might also want to check out the tachings of the Church Fathers. They also testify to the triune authority of the Church, Tradition, and the Scriptures.

I hope this helps.

God Bless,

Tony

[Michael333]

... You are right in saying that in the Early Church they had to rely on oral tradition. In 2 Thess 2:15 we read, "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." ....

Very good comments so far! I would like to add -- Human traditions may be good or bad, but they do not have the weight that apostolic tradition does. The latter, since it conveys God

[RGR]

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Odd, I don't see a thing about tradition in there! As a matter of fact, when talking about traditions, we often see it as a bad thing:

Matthew 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mark 7:1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. 2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

[eric]

You go, Ronald.

[John3;16]

JMJ

If it said "Only Scripture" then there would be a case for the authority to rest in Scripture alone. Also in verse 15 St. Paul writes, "And that from a child thou has known the holy scriptures....."In St. Paul's day the New Testament was not canonized. Through logical deduction this would mean that only the Old Testament would be sufficient to the exclusion on the New. I'm not willing to take the leap and dismiss the New Testament.

You are right in saying that in the Early Church they had to rely on oral tradition. In 2 Thess 2:15 we read, "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." Notice that St. Paul did not give a time table as to when the faithful can get rid of Tradition and rely on the Scripture alone.

I don't believe that the Apostle Paul was referring to the Old Testament Scripture, the gospels were written before the epistles and the epistles were written over a period of time, in the book of Timothy the Apostle Paul refers to Timothy's mother who was a Christian and raised Timothy in the faith, but I agree that most heard the word by preaching and teaching, Jesus instructed his disciples to go preach the gospel to all the world and make disciples of men, this

is a key to understanding what was preached, it was not the law or traditions of men, it was

not even the old covenant (old testament) but rather fulfillment of the old testament was preached, and that fulfillment is the Gospel or good news. The new covenant replaced the old,

and this was the message that was carried to all who would believe.

Concerning tradition there are warnings against and also instructions to adhere to them, so I would conclude that you must be discerning as to which traditions you follow, the problem with

many traditions is that they become doctrine.

I choose #2 as long as you discern what is true, and that which aligns itself with the word of God. As the Epistle's reveal there was much heresy even in the early church.

This is a link to a site that dates the writings of the new testament.

http://www.probe.org/content/view/678/77/

[Michael333]

Odd, I don't see a thing about tradition in there! As a matter of fact, when talking about traditions, we often see it as a bad thing:

What is Tradition?

In this discussion it is important to keep in mind what is meant by tradition. The term does not refer to legends or mythological accounts, nor does it encompass transitory customs or practices which may change, as circumstances warrant, such as styles of priestly dress, particular forms of devotion to saints, or even liturgical rubrics. Sacred or apostolic tradition consists of the teachings that the apostles passed on orally through their preaching. These teachings largely (perhaps entirely) overlap with those contained in Scripture, but the mode of their transmission is different.

They have been handed down and entrusted to the Church. It is necessary that Christians believe in and follow this tradition as well as the Bible (Luke 10:16). The truth of the faith has been given primarily to the leaders of the Church (Eph. 3:5), who, with Christ, form the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20). The Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects this teaching from corruption (John 14:25-26, 16:13).

Paul illustrated what tradition is: "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. . . . Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed" (1 Cor. 15:3,11). The apostle praised those who followed Tradition: "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2).

The first Christians "devoted themselves to the apostles

[Guest stray bullet]

Holy Tradition are the teachings of the apostles, revealed and protected by the Holy Spirit, taught by the Church. It is enough alone, because it saved many souls before the Gospels were written and long before the bible was canonized.

"The Word" is not merely what is written in the bible- but taught by the apostles through the Holy Spirit. Most of these teachings were written down in the Gospels and epistles of the NT.

Christ left us with apostles, not a bible- it is these apostles I will follow while on Earth, until Christ returns, or I die.