Mark777 Posted June 2, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 2, 2006 (edited) Nebula, Do you think a passage can have contradictory but valid interpretations? (Again, I am only asking questions out of interest.) Do you believe in prayer languages? or Are tongues always earthly languages? Mark Edit: Yes, Nebula, I did read your answer. I was just interested in a clarification from you. Thank you for answering me. I repeated my question for tah humorously exchanging the word "if" for "when". Sorry for the confusion. Edited June 2, 2006 by Mark777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tah Posted June 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,131 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/12/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 2, 2006 You cannot prove that tongues is not a gift of the Spirit....Scripturally... You do not believe , I am OK with that , If you do not see it you do not see it..... why do you feel you have to prove , in your opinion , that those who differ in their interpretation are wrong... You probably don't dance in Church either do you?that's OK with me too... Why do you want to put nebula over a barrel and make her see it your way... and as I read through this that is what I saw was happening... Didn't sound to me like nebula was blessed by the conversation .... perhaps I should not have said anything at all and left this thread alone.. things have a way of coming to light when I do speak...(whether I should have or not.. ) there is a scripture that I like a lot... I love the Lord, I love what He has done and what He is doing and what He will do in my life.. I believe you do to...I know nebula does too from her posts... here is the scripture... Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be of this mind. And if in anything you are otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this to you. I have complete faith in God that He will bring His children into perfect truth and understanding.. I do not worry about whether or not you speak in tongues and cannot understand why you feel you have to prove they do not exist when we believe it is very real and very scriptural... I have no need to make you see you are wrong...I leave you to the Holy Spirit... whomever is wrong God will make it known to them right?? I count on His word to do just that in all our lives ... and just perhaps everyone is right where God wants them in their understanding for now... you don't know.... Mark, let us love and forbear with one another... so what if our walk with Jesus is a little different than yours.. I believe I am in the center of God's will for me... don't you believe the same about your walk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 2, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 2, 2006 Tah, Calm down! I was not attaching you or anyone. I am not settled on exactly what tongues were/are. I am just asking questions for my own clarification. Going to the source is alway a good thing. You and Nebula are the one's who say they have that gift - who better to ask about it. Don't be offended by my questioning. I'm harmless. Love in Christ, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tah Posted June 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,131 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/12/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 2, 2006 Then ask God to show you...He is the source.... The understanding is not going to come from man anyhow.. it is the Spirit that gives us understanding... Mark, You have all the Scripture... Fast and pray , trust Him for your understanding... Get on your face and open your heart and just ask Him.... He is right there to give you the answer.. I cannot imagine what anyone could say to you that would make any difference as you have it all right in front of you... Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Jam 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. He wants us to have that which we need... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Author Share Posted June 2, 2006 Nebula, Do you think a passage can have contradictory but valid interpretations? (Again, I am only asking questions out of interest.) You know, that's a very sticky question to answer.... Do you believe in prayer languages? I Cor. 14:2 - 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; What is "speaking to God" called? Prayer - correct? So, speaking to God in tongues is praying in tongues, is it not? Are tongues always earthly languages? I don't know - has anyone discovered they speak in Klingon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted June 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 2, 2006 Anyone can understand what the scripturtes tell us about any of the gifts without having the gift. OK - then what do you understand Paul to be saying when he says: 1 Cor. 14:4 - He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, How do you think a person speaking in tongues "edifies himself"? Lets look at this passage in context: Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying. 1 Corinthians 14:1-5 NASB This passage falls into a larger context of chapters 12-14. This section deals with the theology of theology and practical implications in the life of the church. Paul gives an overview of the gifts in chapter 12: 1. The list of the gifts (12:1-11) 2. The purpose of the gifts (12:12-31) In this chapter. Paul lists the gifts then explains that there is diversity in the body (not all will have all the gifts) All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 1 Corinthians 12:29-30 NASB Paul then states that they should desire the greater gifts: But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way. 1 Corinthains 12:31 NASB Paul even provides a list of gifts prioritized according to their importance to the church: And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:38 NASB Thus Paul has made a case that there are a multitude of gifts (some of which are more important to the life of the body). Not all will have all the gifts. Their prime function is edification and unity in the body. To create interdependance and to demonstrate to an unbelieving world that the Spirit of God has been poured out on the church. In chapter 13 Paul now states the essential ingredient for all of the gifts to function as they should. Unless love is the motivator and energizer, the gifts will not accomplish the goal for which they were given: If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:1-2 NASB Paul now describes the nature of the love that will energize the gifts and ensure their proper function and use (13:4-8). If this type of love does not permeate the believer as he / she uses the gift, the effect of the gift will be deminished and may even cause harm to the cause of Christ. In chapter 14 Paul now starts to deal with issues that had arisen in the body at Corinth. namely: 1. Tongues had begun to take a role in the body that was not a part of God's order. It was surplanting the more important gifts of apostolic leadership, teaching and prophecy (notice tongues is listed last in the prioritized list). 2. In addition, those who were speaking in toungues were doing so publically without an interpreter. This served to cloak the truth of the gospel in a veil of incoherence. Paul is not addressing the gift of tongues in general, but its abuse in a public worship setting and the attitudes of those who have the gift. Paul begins by reaffirming that above all the believers should : 1. Pursue Love (1 Corinthians 14:1) 2. Desire Spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 14:1) 3. Especally the gift of prophecy (1 Corinthians 14:1) Paul then instructs them that the one gift they should desire above all others is the gift of prophecy (as compared to their irrational focus on tongues in public worship). Paul then proceeds to compare tongues and prophecy and show why prophecy is superior. It is superior because it is in prophecy that the entire body is edified (1 Corinthians 14:3). In uniterpreted tongues only the speaker is edified. Tongues constitutes communion with God, not communication with others. The benchmark of what is acceptable in public worship is "edification" of the body. There seems to have arose in Corinth a cult of the "haves" and "have-nots" and spiritual jealousy. They believed that because they were mystically communing with God, they were receiving knowledge that no one else could receive. The followng verse is very interesting: Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying. 1 Corinthains 14:5 NASB Paul again repeats the superiority of prophecy to tongues in a corporate setting and then states his wish that : 1. They all spoke in tongues 2. Even more that they would prophecy This verse echo's Moses thoughts: But Moses said to him, "Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the LORD's people were prophets, that the LORD would put His Spirit upon them! Numbers 11:29 NASB In this passage there were individuals in the camp that began to prophecy. Joshua went to Moses (jealous for Moses' position). Moses responded that he wished that all in the camp would receive communication from God. He did not want haves and have nots. He looked forward to the day where the Spirit of God was poured out on all. That is the context for Paul's statement. He sees that this attitude has arisen in the Corinthian church. That there are some who have and some who don't. Paul indicates this is the wrong attitude. The Spirit of God has now been poured out on the body of Christ. No one is receiving knowledge that others can't understand. The Spirit gives the gifts so all might be edified. If our attitude does not mirror Paul or Moses, we are missing out on the real purpose for the gifts we have received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGR Posted June 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 512 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 8,601 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/16/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/04/1973 Share Posted June 2, 2006 Neb, sis, I stand with ya on this one as well! Being Pentecostal I was around the moving of the Spirit from the time I was little, so I do relate to what you're saying. However, I just don't think I'm ready to jump into this argument! Bless ya, sis! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Author Share Posted June 2, 2006 Tah - If nothing else, I was blessed by what you said. (I dance in worship, too! ) Ron - That's OK. This discussion got more involved than I had intended, as well. EricH - Wow - that was the first time I heard someone who does not have the gift of tongues give a discussion on the Corinthians passage that did not totally diss the gift of tongues. Thank-you! All others I have heard treat the gift with disrespect. But still, when Paul says that tongues "edifies oneself", do you understand what he was saying; that is, do you understand how tongues edifies me when I speak to God in tongues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted June 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 2, 2006 I could never understand your unique experience, but I can understand the parameters that govern your use of the gift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Author Share Posted June 2, 2006 Yeah - that seems to be the big thing. We who have the gift understand how the gift edified us . . . which is why we love to use it so much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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