The Moon

[Guest jckduboise]

I agree this dream is not of a Godly spirit and was not meant for interpretation..anyone who has attempted to interpret this dream is going on assumption as far as I can SEE..no arguments on my part regarding these last statements..smiles to you and God bless

Excellent. That is what I was trying to get at....there is nothing wrong with interpretation, we just need to test the interpretation when it comes.

Everytime someone mentions hearing from the Lord, I see you and certain others decrying this as being the Lord. I have yet to see you acknowledge anything spiritual-related as being of the Lord.

For one, using scriptural analysis to look at an interpretation is spiritual, so i don't know why you haven't seen me do anything spiritually related.

Second, I have never come down on someone for claiming to hear from the Lord or have an experience. What i have always said is that these things must be backed up by scriptural teachings. In other words, Joseph Smith claimed to hear from the Spirit, but His claim was not scripturally sound...thus his claim was wrong. Paul claimed to hear from the Spirit and write from the Spirit, but he was also able to back this up by appealing to what others were saying (who had witnessed Jesus) and by Holy Writ. Even Jesus, though He didn't need to, validated much of what He said by appealing to scripture (prophecies, teachings, proper interpretations, etc). In other words, I have never said it is wrong to speak in the Spirit; I have said it is wrong to do so when there is no scriptural precedence for what is being said or it contradicts what scripture teaches.

Gotcha, okay buddy..I guess we were on the same page after all...God bless

[felix]

*sigh*

There is a difference between saying, "This dream reminds me of..." or "It could be this...." than "This is what it means." At the point you begin to interpret a dream, even if what you say sounds good, you better be sure and have scriptural backing that God is leading you to an interpretation. This is, once again, the problem with placing experience above scripture; it always leads to pragmatism. "Well it doesn't matter how you get the interpretation, as long as it sounds good." That simply isn't true...you have to be led by the Holy Spirit in order to make an interpretation...anything else simply is not a proper interpretation. WHy are Christians becomming so accepting of anything that sounds "spiritual"? Just because it sounds or look spiritual doesn't mean it is. We are to test EVERYTHING. I tested these posts...not a single one was an accurate interpretation (because no interpretation is to be had that I know of). They liken similarities, offer what the dreams could mean, or show scriptural parallels, but they don't offer an actual interpretation.

And who is to say that the Holy Spirit didn't lead this person to the interpretation of this very strange dream? To assume that this person isn't led by the Holy Spirit because you don't like the way it is worded is going on your own personal feelings.

Once again:

There was no initial feeling of the Holy Spirit as Felix admitted; if God meant this dream to be interpreted, why the delay? Not once do we see that in scripture. Had there been an initial feeling, a claim of authority in interpretation, and it fit with biblical models, then there would have been no issue.

Hello,

Well, I think the fact that I had no initial feeling could be infered from what I wrote previously. I'm not sure however if you knew this before I replied to you...

I agree with what Nebula has presented. I think in cases like this we would need more confirmations from other members of the Body. So far there's only two or maybe 3 opposing views that this dream is not for the Church. I think we could just wait and see how others feel about it.

In my experience the Lord only shows me revelations when I have been dwelling in His presence: been in much prayer, praying over the word, seeking Him first thing in the morning, remembering his death & sacrifice for my sins, taking on the blood, and striving to be strengthened into my inner man. Sometimes the Lord is merciful and gives me revelations when I know that I am not in the right place in my spirit. But as far as experiences go, I can't say that this is the way or procedure. I don't think there is a way for man to explain the process like science. The spiritual realm is far above man's ability to comprehend. People try to understand it or make sense of it (and I believe to some degree you can) but most of all there is only faith and trust in the Lord for these matters. Like the visions that the people of God will sniff...we will have spiritual faculties to sniff out the foul and pleasant smells. While we dont know why this object may smell foul and that object may smell pleasant, we can just know the smell. This is the same way with these things...I don't understand them...but we can recognize when it is of God and not. The key to knowing all these things though is through prayer...an exericise of spirit.

BTW AK, I'm wondering about what you wrote here...

We are to test EVERYTHING. I tested these posts...not a single one was an accurate interpretation (because no interpretation is to be had that I know of). They liken similarities, offer what the dreams could mean, or show scriptural parallels, but they don't offer an actual interpretation.

What do you mean by actual interpretation? Interpretations will always have 'liken similarities' and 'scriptural parallels'. The dreams can be allegorical and so would have these things.

[Guest jckduboise]

Felix,

Exactly what do you mean by your inner man? Does your inner man have anything to do with seeking God or is it a term you picked up through some form of counseling or meditative process you have been involved in?

Curious is all

[apothanein kerdos]

And again you refuse to share about hearing from the Lord or interpreting the dreams you say you have interpreted.

This doesn't instill confidence.

I speak with truth and scripture, I don't need to validate myself with experiences. If those two aren't enough, then nothing else is.

You say you know the dream is not of God because of your experience with interpreting dreams before (whatever that means), your knowledge the Scripture, your study of the Scripture, and your feeling of the Holy Spirit.

Once again, wrong. You have consistently mistquoted me EVEN AFTER I have more than clarified what I am saying. I am getting absolutely tired of this and ask that if you are going to do that, you simply stop responding to me. It's getting tiresome Nebula, very, very, very tiresome. I specifically cleared that I was not basing this off my experience and that I was comparing it to scriptural presedence. It is also not my interpretation, my knowledge, and my study, it is biblical FACT. I will not accept your post modern approach to this issue.

Felix may not have had the confidence you deemed necessary for the word to genuinely of the Lord - but does the Lord require such confidence.

Yes. If a Word isn't spoken in confidence, it isn't spoken in belief. If it isn't spoken in belief, then it is spoken in doubt. If the messenger doubts, then there is no purpose in him delivering the message. Look at Moses. If God didn't require confidence, why did He go out of His way to prove Himself to Moses and to instill confidence in Moses? Hmmmmmmmm

How many signs did Gideon need before he was confident that what was spoken to him by the angel was the Lord?

He didn't act until he was confident.

I tremble every time I speak a revelation I have, for I have no way of knowing if that was the Lord or my active imagination; yet so often it is affirmed that the word I gave was indeed a confirmation of things the Lord had placed in their heart and such.

THen you shouldn't be giving revelations at all. If you aren't confident then Biblically you aren't ready. How can you stand up for the Lord when you don't fully believe it is Him? The simple answer is you can't, at least not adequately. You may have good results sometimes, but this is pragmatism. Just because something yields a good result doesn't mean the methods to get there were Biblically sound.

Didn't Daniel have a delayed interpretation?

Yes, but notice a few things:

1) No one told Daniel the dream

2) Daniel sought God for it and did not try to decalre an interpretation without doing so (in fact, this is what caused Arioch to try and kill all the wise men in the kingdom)

3) Daniel didn't try to speak on the issue until he had heard from God

Well, I think the fact that I had no initial feeling could be infered from what I wrote previously. I'm not sure however if you knew this before I replied to you...

I agree with what Nebula has presented. I think in cases like this we would need more confirmations from other members of the Body. So far there's only two or maybe 3 opposing views that this dream is not for the Church. I think we could just wait and see how others feel about it.

I could tell before you ever confirmed what I said.

As for confirmation, majority doesn't make right, even in the Church. Scripture is the only thing that makes something correct.

[felix]

Felix,

Exactly what do you mean by your inner man? Does your inner man have anything to do with seeking God or is it a term you picked up through some form of counseling or meditative process you have been involved in?

Curious is all

Hello sister,

The inner man is from

Ephesians 3:16

That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

There was a time that I would pray over this verse everyday because at the time I did not quite understand what the "inner man" meant. But I asked the Lord that he could strengthen with might by his Spirit into the inner man and soon later I was indeed strenthened into the inner man and walking by the spirit. My 'old-self' was not in the way and the Lord Himself was free to reign in me.

AK had replied...

QUOTE

I tremble every time I speak a revelation I have, for I have no way of knowing if that was the Lord or my active imagination; yet so often it is affirmed that the word I gave was indeed a confirmation of things the Lord had placed in their heart and such.

THen you shouldn't be giving revelations at all. If you aren't confident then Biblically you aren't ready. How can you stand up for the Lord when you don't fully believe it is Him? The simple answer is you can't, at least not adequately. You may have good results sometimes, but this is pragmatism. Just because something yields a good result doesn't mean the methods to get there were Biblically sound.

I think Nebula is perfectly ready and should be giving revelations. But this is for the master to decide, not us. I don't think the level of confidence determines whether someone has a message from God or not much less whether they should deliver the message or not. Moses, for instance, was not confident when the Lord called Him to be a prophet. Also the Apostle Paul...

1 Corinthians 2:3-4 (New International Version)

I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,

Most of the time, many Christians are given a message from God to speak to the Church but are very nervous and afraid. When they are given a message of sharp judgement it is not easy to simply announce it to the congregation immediately. There is a lot of doubt before the delivery of the message and sometimes even failure. And it is so common that we ask whether this is surely of the Lord or not. This actually isn't a lack of faith or anything...it is actually like a filter that would filter out our own words and thoughts. It makes us more sure that we speak only the Lord's message and not our own.

As for the majority confirmation of an interpretation I agree...it cannot make any definite conclusion as the majority are the ones who enter the wide gates and only the very few who know the straight and narrow. Of the many prophecies from God only few will believe while the majority will ignore and condemn. I thought about this after I wrote that and the conclusion I've come to is to simply to pray over it and see what the Lord says to you personally. This is the same for absolutely everything else: prayer. I don't believe there is a man-made way to figure these things out. The way to figure these things out already dwells inside of us: Jesus Christ, the life-giving Spirit. Each and every person has to ask the Lord individually and not follow the words of man blindly. AK, you have provided an 'anti-interpretation' and I have provided an interpretation. I think we can just leave it up to the Lord to speak to the hearts of every person who reads it. The Lord has a plan and purpose and it will be done. We can just be faithful to our Lord and the Lord's work can be accomplished.

[Guest jckduboise]

Felix,

Exactly what do you mean by your inner man? Does your inner man have anything to do with seeking God or is it a term you picked up through some form of counseling or meditative process you have been involved in?

Curious is all

Hello sister,

The inner man is from

Ephesians 3:16

That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

There was a time that I would pray over this verse everyday because at the time I did not quite understand what the "inner man" meant. But I asked the Lord that he could strengthen with might by his Spirit into the inner man and soon later I was indeed strenthened into the inner man and walking by the spirit. My 'old-self' was not in the way and the Lord Himself was free to reign in me.

My curiosity was piqued by it because I have heard that term used for certain self-awareness groups and I wondered where it might have been taken from andin those cases seems to be really taken out of its intended form, you know that sideways stuff that people use on certain verses or phrases in the bible.

So tell me what was the process that the Lord took you through that is helping you obtain your "inner man"?

[felix]

Felix,

Exactly what do you mean by your inner man? Does your inner man have anything to do with seeking God or is it a term you picked up through some form of counseling or meditative process you have been involved in?

Curious is all

Hello sister,

The inner man is from

Ephesians 3:16

That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

There was a time that I would pray over this verse everyday because at the time I did not quite understand what the "inner man" meant. But I asked the Lord that he could strengthen with might by his Spirit into the inner man and soon later I was indeed strenthened into the inner man and walking by the spirit. My 'old-self' was not in the way and the Lord Himself was free to reign in me.

My curiosity was piqued by it because I have heard that term used for certain self-awareness groups and I wondered where it might have been taken from andin those cases seems to be really taken out of its intended form, you know that sideways stuff that people use on certain verses or phrases in the bible.

So tell me what was the process that the Lord took you through that is helping you obtain your "inner man"?

That's very common. Many other spiritualisms not of our Lord Jesus Christ use the term "inner man". I'm not aware of the process but that I was only praying over this verse. And day after day I started recognizing that I was indeed being strengthened into the inner man. My part was just praying over the verse and reading the Word. That's as far as the process went.

Our inner man is our spirit grafted with our Lord Jesus Christ. During that time the Lord's words were very close to my heart, and a lot of my old bad habits went away. My thinking changed...things wouldn't irritate me anymore. Essentially I was decreasing and Christ was increasing (john 3:30). If I encountered a bad or stressful situation I would just ask God to strengthen me into my inner man. When I was in need or in pain I would ask to be strengthened into the inner man. When I did not know what to do I would ask to be strengthened into the inner man. And then there would simply be the peace of God in all these things. I would experience the riches of His glory and truly recognize that our Lord Jesus is all-in-all and His grace is sufficient in all things.

[apothanein kerdos]

I think Nebula is perfectly ready and should be giving revelations. But this is for the master to decide, not us. I don't think the level of confidence determines whether someone has a message from God or not much less whether they should deliver the message or not. Moses, for instance, was not confident when the Lord called Him to be a prophet. Also the Apostle Paul...

1 Corinthians 2:3-4 (New International Version)

I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,

Most of the time, many Christians are given a message from God to speak to the Church but are very nervous and afraid. When they are given a message of sharp judgement it is not easy to simply announce it to the congregation immediately. There is a lot of doubt before the delivery of the message and sometimes even failure. And it is so common that we ask whether this is surely of the Lord or not. This actually isn't a lack of faith or anything...it is actually like a filter that would filter out our own words and thoughts. It makes us more sure that we speak only the Lord's message and not our own.

Being nervous, afraid, and weak isn't the same at being unsure of if it is God or lacking in confidence. It is easy to be confident and afraid at the same the same time. For instance, if someone were to torture me, or threaten to torture me, for my beliefs in Christ, though I would remain confident in my faith I would also be afraid. If I were to doubt that Jesus existed or that He really wanted me to do this for Him, then it would be a completely different story. In America we view fear and confidence as polar opposites; but in all reality the two can exist at the same time. Nebula said she isn't sure if it is the Lord's voice or her own ambitions...when that is the case we should not act because we have not heard clearly from the Lord. Name once in the Bible where someone acted without being sure it was God. As I pointed out, though Moses was fearful, he was also confident in God because God had proven He was all powerful.

[nebula]

AK -

I really, really tried to be respectful to you and your knowlege of Scripture. I even opened my heart to you there at the end. It was very emotionally and physically draining for me to do so.

But as I read your response to me, all you did was trample my heart to pieces.

If that's how you want to play, then fine.

First of all, kid - you are not my spiritual superior. I have been learning about hearing the voice of the Lord from a man who daily puts it into practice. And he is not reluctant, afraid, or whatever your reason is, to share how he has been listening to the Lord.

Faith without works is dead.

What are your "works" with regards to hearing from the Lord?

Principles mean nothing without application. How else can the hearer understand?

All I have asked is that you put your money where your mouth is, yet you refuse to do so.

One example of a time you have interpreted a dream so we can see how all that you say can be put into effect - that's all.

What is the problem with that?

Paul had no problem sharing his experiences; why do you?

Second, if confidence is required to miister to people, then I'm better off not getting out of bed in the morning. As I have stated on many occassions, I have a struggle with chronic depression, and if you know anything about such things, you should realize that insecurity is one of the side-effects. Emotional instability is another.

I sure hope you don't treat your students the way you treat me.

If I have to conquor these things before I can do anything for the Lord, then I couldn't even volunteer for a work project. Because the last time I did, I wasn't even sure I was applying the coat of paint properly on the wall! I am not confident with interacting with people; therefore, I couldn't even work at a soup kitchen because I might mess up. Why should the confidence factor only apply to hearing the Lord? Are there any accounts of anyone in the Bible doing anything with insecurity? Going to battle? Teaching? Preaching? Serving?

Show me your faith by your works.

What evidence do you have for your faith?

[RGR]

AK -

I really, really tried to be respectful to you and your knowlege of Scripture. I even opened my heart to you there at the end. It was very emotionally and physically draining for me to do so.

But as I read your response to me, all you did was trample my heart to pieces.

If that's how you want to play, then fine.

First of all, kid - you are not my spiritual superior. I have been learning about hearing the voice of the Lord from a man who daily puts it into practice. And he is not reluctant, afraid, or whatever your reason is, to share how he has been listening to the Lord.

Faith without works is dead.

What are your "works" with regards to hearing from the Lord?

Principles mean nothing without application. How else can the hearer understand?

All I have asked is that you put your money where your mouth is, yet you refuse to do so.

One example of a time you have interpreted a dream so we can see how all that you say can be put into effect - that's all.

What is the problem with that?

Paul had no problem sharing his experiences; why do you?

Second, if confidence is required to miister to people, then I'm better off not getting out of bed in the morning. As I have stated on many occassions, I have a struggle with chronic depression, and if you know anything about such things, you should realize that insecurity is one of the side-effects. Emotional instability is another.

I sure hope you don't treat your students the way you treat me.

If I have to conquor these things before I can do anything for the Lord, then I couldn't even volunteer for a work project. Because the last time I did, I wasn't even sure I was applying the coat of paint properly on the wall! I am not confident with interacting with people; therefore, I couldn't even work at a soup kitchen because I might mess up. Why should the confidence factor only apply to hearing the Lord? Are there any accounts of anyone in the Bible doing anything with insecurity? Going to battle? Teaching? Preaching? Serving?

Show me your faith by your works.

What evidence do you have for your faith?