The Gospel according to Jesus

[Pilgrim7]

Tess,

I'm not discouraged or upset, just amazed. I quote the words of Jesus that are so contrary to the words of man and up to now no one even seemed to notice. Tis truly amazing.

God bless,

Dennis

[Pilgrim7]

Nero,

I would ask you to read the words of Jesus more carefully in Matthew. He is the one who said them, not I. I just quoted them. He is the Saviour and what He said is the Gospel.

There is nothing in Scripture that contradicts them. If it seems so, then it is a misunderstanding of human wisdom versus the wisdom of God.

I would also counsel you to read the what Hebrews says of the New Covenant in Heb 8:10 and Heb 10:16.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

It looks to me like the difference in the covenants isn't the doing away with the Commandments, but changing the place where they are written. You see when they are written in you heart by God, its hard to make a case for them being done away with. The New Covenant Christian loves God's laws.

Jesus came to reconcile us back to God for having broken His Commandments. He also came to set us free from sin. Notice again what Paul said, that He who has been baptized into Jesus death, are dead to sin or transgression of God's Commandments. He then goes on to say that we are free from sin, or the transgression of God's Commandments.

God Bless,

Dennis

[Pilgrim7]

St Worm,

You wrote:

'The gospel as you are presenting it is not really good news at all. In fact its very bad news because it requires more work from us than we are capable of performing to please God.'

Scripture disagrees with you, Jesus disagrees with you and Paul disagrees with you. It is the carnal man who cannot please God for He is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. The Spiritual man can and does. The Spiritual man is more than a conqueror for Christ always gives the victory. Jesus always makes a way of escape. It is good news when you have the law of God written in your heart.

Here are the words of Paul:

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Don't you believe these words? These are really 'good news' for those who are in Christ. They need not break God's commandments any more. Jesus dwells in them and keeps them from sin. Tremendously 'good news'.

PS: I only presented the words of Jesus. Maybe you should talk to Him about what He said and Why. The Holy Spirit awaits to lead into 'all truth'.

God Bless,

Dennis

[Guest yod]

Shalom Dennis,

I am a messianic Texan and it was an understanding of the Torah that taught me what mercy and grace are.

As much as my mind used to tell me that God wasn't pleased with people who didn't "observe" sabbath, my spirit told me that His blood was able to cover all my sin....before and after.

I'd like to point out that the verses you quoted speak specifically of the House of Israel and the House of Judah. The nations (gentiles) are neither.

But so I will understand your position better;

Do you think there is a penalty is for going to church on Sunday? Anything at all? If not...what's the big deal?

In my own observance of Shabbat, I found that it was much better going to church on Sunday. That can be a lot of work getting the family together and making a trip! It enabled me to completely take Saturday off.

But that aside....

In Acts 15 this was the very question put before the High Council of the original congregation at Jerusalem. "Shall we require the gentiles to keep the Law of Moses and circumcision?"

The answer was a resounding "NO". It seems obvious to me that they decided the Holy Spirit knew what He was doing without their imposing anything but a few basic rules allowing for fellowship between jews and gentiles in the Body.

And what do you with Ya'acov's ruling in Acts 15 where he says it is the decision of the Apostles AND the Holy Spirit to not require gentiles to keep the laws of Israel as if they were jews? Kefa was told by the Lord Himself not to call any man unclean whom He had made clean through the Spirit.

How do you reconcile this?

I think they wisely understood that gentiles living in Greece couldn't be expected to maintain the laws of jews living in Israel...and God had endorsed them by giving His Spirit to people who did not "observe" the Torah already.

[Pilgrim7]

Shiloh,

Why don't you comment on the verses of Scripture that I quoted, in stead of trying to disparage me. Jesus, my Saviour, said these things. If quoting Jesus is 'false teaching' as you say, then some one is in deep trouble. Myself, I will believe Jesus, follow the words of Jesus and Scripture says that His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. I will take my chances with Jesus, rather than the teachings of man.

Nice to hear from you again.

God Bless,

Dennis

[Pilgrim7]

Yod,

What a truly gracious reply. I really appreciate your attitude, truly from Christ.

I will answer your reply very soon. I want some time to absorb it and will respond to each point.

Thanks again and God Bless you,

Dennis

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh,

Why don't you comment on the verses of Scripture that I quoted, in stead of trying to disparage me. Jesus, my Saviour, said these things. If quoting Jesus is 'false teaching' as you say, then some one is in deep trouble. Myself, I will believe Jesus, follow the words of Jesus and Scripture says that His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. I will take my chances with Jesus, rather than the teachings of man.

Nice to hear from you again.

God Bless,

Dennis

Because your approach to the Bible drips with arrogance and conceit. If I were to comment on the verses you present, and my comments were not in agreement with yours, I would be accused of listening to the teachings of men and not to the Holy Spirit.

The implication in all of your "teachings" is that you are presenting the ONLY the words of Jesus and not mixed with any human influence or teaching whatsoever which is so hypocritical it isn't even funny. You treat your views and as being pure as the driven snow and totally from the Bible, without any mix of human teaching, and I will not treat with respect, that kind of high minded nonsense.

I am not disparaging you, It is just that we have been down this road before, and you always start off trying to sound spiritual, trying sound like you give a rip about the "the gospel," and the truth is that you don't. You are simply trying to build a platform to continue some diatribe against those who do not live as you choose to live. Those who don't keep the Sabbath are living a disobedient sub-standard Christian life, according to you. If we don't keep the Sabbath, you label us as rebellious and of course, we are not following the Holy Spirit.

YOU are the one teaching another gospel, a works based, "gotta do this and gotta do that" kind of gospel. You are anti-thesis of the Apostle Paul who that that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone apart from ANY works.

Again, anyone who disagrees with YOU, is denigrated as listening to human wisdom while your views are pure Bible, and you think that only those who see it your way are listening to the Holy Spirit. Take the arrogance somewhere else.

I'm not discouraged or upset, just amazed. I quote the words of Jesus that are so contrary to the words of man and up to now no one even seemed to notice. Tis truly amazing.

Oh please... We don't have a problem with the words of Jesus. It is your ungodly, misguided handling of the words of Jesus that we have a problem with. Some of us actually have skills in hermeneutics which you lack, and can interpret the words of Jesus for ourselves. Just because we don't arrive at the same conclusions you do, does not mean that we are contradicting the words of Jesus. We contradict your interpretation.

[st. Worm]

Dennis quote:

Don't you believe these words? These are really 'good news' for those who are in Christ. They need not break God's commandments any more. Jesus dwells in them and keeps them from sin. Tremendously 'good news'.

PS: I only presented the words of Jesus. Maybe you should talk to Him about what He said and Why. The Holy Spirit awaits to lead into 'all truth'.

God Bless,

Dennis

SW:

Sorry Dennis. You completely ignored the issue I brought up. You are confusing justification and sanctification, Law and Gospel. You are quoting the Bible but doing so completely out of context. Jesus also says we should love God and neighbor unfailingly and with absolute perfection. As sinners, we cannot do that. If you think you have, then you are lost. How about reading Jesus's story of the rich young ruler and giving me your interpretation of that? Also, read about the pharisee and the tax collector and tell me about that. Also, tell me why St. Paul berates himself in Romans 7 and why he also calls himself the chief of sinners. Does he not have the Holy Spirit either?

SW

[Pilgrim7]

Yod,

I don't wish to argue with you or even convince you for that is the Spirit's job. I am just answering your questions and concerns. I only present scriptures that seem to have been forgotten is the rush to make the 'road wide so that all can enter'.

You wrote:

'As much as my mind used to tell me that God wasn't pleased with people who didn't "observe" sabbath, my spirit told me that His blood was able to cover all my sin....before and after.'

Absolutely, His blood can cover every sin. Does that then leave us free to sin known sin? That is the job of the Ten Commandments, to make sin known.

Paul wrote:

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified (reconciled to God for past sins) by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified (reconciled or forgiven for past sins) by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Absolutely the law, the Ten Commandments cannot justify or forgive anybody. As Paul says, they show us our condemnation and identify our sins. They have no mercy, it is not their job. They are to convict us of sin and drive us to Christ for justification, forgiveness, reconciliation with God for offending Him.)

2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners (in sin again), is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law (crucified with Christ), that I might live unto God.

2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me (as Lord and Master and He will not lead me into sin. If I willfully sin, then I decide not to follow Him and become a transgressor again.): and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God (trusting Him and allowing Him to live His life in and through me and not choosing to sin.), who loved me, and gave himself for me.

2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (You see, I was't forgiven by the law, and I wasn't crucified with the Law, and the law doesn't write itself in my heart, Jesus does all this by faith. Its tough to make a case for known sin if Jesus, the living law is dwelling within my heart as Lord and Master by faith)

You wrote:

'I'd like to point out that the verses you quoted speak specifically of the House of Israel and the House of Judah. The nations (gentiles) are neither.'

As you know the faithful of the house of Israel and Judah received the Messiah. The Apostles were the faithful of Israel. The Church of Christ is the faithful Jewish people. Jesus told them to first go to the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel' for they were the chosen people to bring the blessing of the Gospel to the world. They Gentiles were then invited to be grafted into 'faithful Israel'. The true Christian Church is faithful Isreal, not a Gentile movement, but the continuation of the chosen people of God. I, being a Gentile Believer, was grafted into faithful Israel. God did not start a new church, a Gentile Church, as many seem to believe, but restored faithful Israel and then after a period of time, opened it up to the Gentiles.

You wrote:

'Do you think there is a penalty is for going to church on Sunday? Anything at all? If not...what's the big deal?'

This wasn't the point of my post as some have alledged, but I will address it. The Scripture doesn't directly address the Sunday issue. The real issue according to God is that of breaking the Sabbath, which is a direct commandment of God, given by Jesus on Mt. Sinai to Israel, His faithful people. Scriptures says that the wages of sin is death. This is what makes it a big deal, no offense intended.

You wrote:

'In my own observance of Shabbat, I found that it was much better going to church on Sunday. That can be a lot of work getting the family together and making a trip! It enabled me to completely take Saturday off.'

I understand what you are saying here. It seems that you do indeed keep the Sabbath. If you look back to creation, Jesus, the Creator, created the Sabath Day and made it Holy. He calls it His Holy Day and says that He made it for mankind, which He did. Now a Holy Day is made for Holy things, not just rest. The true meaning of the word is to cease. God ceased from His work of creating because He was finnished, not tired. He ceased from his work in order to fellowship with His created beings, mankind. Adam, having been created in the 'image of God', need to be instructed in righteous and holiness. This is the essence of the Sabbath, fellowship with God. We cease from secular pursuits, in order to fellowship with Him who is Holy, to be instructed by Him in Holiness.

You wrote:

But that aside....

'In Acts 15 this was the very question put before the High Council of the original congregation at Jerusalem. "Shall we require the gentiles to keep the Law of Moses and circumcision?"

The answer was a resounding "NO". It seems obvious to me that they decided the Holy Spirit knew what He was doing without their imposing anything but a few basic rules allowing for fellowship between jews and gentiles in the Body.'

As you know that decision had to do with requiring the Gentiles to be circumcized. They also wanted them to keep the myriad of Ceremonial laws which were only types and shadows of Jesus and His sacrifice and ministry. The Gentiles were already keeping the Sabbath through the leading of Paul. In fact the reason they didn't add any more to the instruction is because they were hearing the law of Moses preached every Sabbath day as they gathered for instruction in righteousness with the Apostles.

Ac 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes (gentile converts) followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. (thus gathering together on the next Sabbath was continuing in the grace of God)

Ac 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

You wrote:

'And what do you with Ya'acov's ruling in Acts 15 where he says it is the decision of the Apostles AND the Holy Spirit to not require gentiles to keep the laws of Israel as if they were jews? Kefa was told by the Lord Himself not to call any man unclean whom He had made clean through the Spirit.'

'How do you reconcile this?'

I don't reconcile anything, the Holy Spirit leads into all truth through the Scriptures. The Gentiles were not required to be circumcised and keep the Ceremonial Laws that pointed forward to the work of Jesus as stated above. It is kind of a moot point to celebrate the shadow when the one casting the shadow has come and dwells within as Lord and Master. Jesus circumcises the heart from all sin by freeing us from sin, by dwelling in us as Lord and Master, and leading us in righteousness and holliness from within. We stilll have the indwelling sin, but Jesus is stronger than sin and always gives the victory to those who trust Him to do that. Yes we can still sin known sin, but there is no need to sin for those who have the Spirit of holiness dwelling in them.

Ac 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. (where the Gentiles gather to hear the word of God.)

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (To walk after the Spirit of holiness is to walk in holiness).

8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Notice that we are not just free from death or the law, but from the sin revealed by the law.)

8:3 For what the law could not do (it could not forgive nor write itself in our hearts) , in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (not just imputed to us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. (They mind holy thing, for the things of the Spirit of holiness are holy things)

8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the LAW OF GOD, neither indeed can be.

8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Paul can't get much cleared than that)

8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God (in holiness), they are the sons of God.

8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

You wrote:

'I think they wisely understood that gentiles living in Greece couldn't be expected to maintain the laws of Israel...and God had endorsed them by giving His Spirit to people who did not "observe" the Torah already.'

Ac 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth (in Greece); ...........

18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. ( This occured after 50 AD. So the Scriptures testify that the Greek converts did keep the Sabbath day as did the Apostled, Jesus, and as we have seen, Paul)

You asked and I have answered. I welcome any Spirit led discussion, but will not argue or trade insults. I have only presented Scripture that seems to be largely ignored. You are one of faithful Israel. Yes, there are many who don't understand for these Scriptures are not presented to them for the Spirit to work on. How can they know unless they hear, and how can they hear if no one presents it to them.

God bless you my brother,

Dennis

[Kabowd]

I haven't had time to read the entire thread, but I skimmed the above post and was curious about this. When you quote Scripture, you often place some type of "explaination" in paranthesis. Like here:

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified (reconciled to God for past sins) by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified (reconciled or forgiven for past sins) by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Absolutely the law, the Ten Commandments cannot justify or forgive anybody. As Paul says, they show us our condemnation and identify our sins. They have no mercy, it is not their job. They are to convict us of sin and drive us to Christ for justification, forgiveness, reconciliation with God for offending Him.)

Where are you getting these explainations? Are they your opinion? From a commentary? Interpretted from Koine Greek?