The Gospel according to Jesus

[Pilgrim7]

Shiloh,

Here is what the Word says, with no comments:

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST, through the forbearance of God;

3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Confession and repentance takes care of future sins.

You made this a Sabbath debate to take the focus off of the words of Jesus which are very clear, which I repeat:

Mt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Here Jesus connects letting our light shine with good works and the Commandments and then goes on to magnify the Commandments and how they relate to the judgment of believers. You can ignore the words of Jesus if you want to, you can even hate His words, you can vilify me and hurl accusations, but they are still HIS WORDS, part of HIS GOSPEL and as He has said will be considered in the Judgment for the Word of God cannot be broken even by Hermeneutics. You see the Sabbath command is not the only one being ignored.

PS: Thanks for bringing all this attention to the Words of Jesus.

God Bless,

Dennis

[Guest shiloh357]

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST, through the forbearance of God;

3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Confession and repentance takes care of future sins.

The problem here is that now you are quoting a verse about remission of sins. That does not support what you were saying about Justification. As I already pointed out, Justification is about what you are, not what you do. Remission of SINS those things we have done, is accomplished by His blood, as it is written: "Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins." Remission of sins, and Justification are completely different theological concepts and cannot be treated as speaking of the same thing.

Secondly, the notion that only our past sins are dealt with is not what this passage is saying. You seem to be trying to limit the scope of the work of the cross, and that is unwarranted. Yes we are forgiven for the things we did before coming to Christ, but that is really beside the point. Justification is not about the past, present or future as it is not time based. Justification is about God changing our standing before Him by virtue of our faith in Christ. It is the blood of Jesus that deals with our works.

The Bible says, in 2Cor. 5 that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. One thing that people tend to forget is that God's justice against sin was satisfied fully at the cross. God is not holding anything against anyone. Confession of sin is a necessary, but it is not for the purpose of putting us back in rightstanding with God. We did not need to be saved because of what we did, but because of we were. Even if we committed not one sin, we would still be under the slavery of power of sin, and still need of salvation. Too many people are conned into the belief that confession of sin keeps us saved or puts us in rightstanding with God, and that is a complete misuse of confession. When we confess our sins to the Lord he cleanses us, particularly our conscience from the stain of guilt. It is a means of keeping us victorious. We do confess sins in order to get re-justified.

You made this a Sabbath debate to take the focus off of the words of Jesus which are very clear, which I repeat:

No, I simply get tired of the same old back-door approach you seem to use. It would be must more respectable for you just come out and say what you believe rather than try to hood wink people into thinking that you are just trying to talk about obeying God. You have used this tactic before as platform to teach the Sabbath has mandatory for Christians. I see you are still up to your old ways.

Mt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Here Jesus connects letting our light shine with good works and the Commandments and then goes on to magnify the Commandments and how they relate to the judgment of believers. You can ignore the words of Jesus if you want to, you can even hate His words, you can vilify me and hurl accusations, but they are still HIS WORDS, part of HIS GOSPEL and as He has said will be considered in the Judgment for the Word of God cannot be broken even by Hermeneutics. You see the Sabbath command is not the only one being ignored.

This is the arrogance I was speaking of before. It is the way you handle the words of Jesus and pervert them into a works based salvation that I am at odds with. The problem is YOU, not Jesus. You need not pretend that my problem with your "theology"stems from a problem with the words of Jesus. Your teaching is not on par with anything that Jesus taught, and It is certainly not on par with the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ which is Salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone. The problem is how you will eventually use those words, some of the most sublime ever spoken and twist and pervert them into a theology that supports a work-based salvation that requires Christians to keep the Sabbath in order to be/stay saved.

That is why you operate from false premise that salvation only took care of your past sins, but those who break the ten commandments are not keeping the gospel either in your estimations. Those who are not keeping the Sabbath are sinning according to you, and since you see Sabbath breaking as a sin, it does not take a rocket scientist to see where you are heading with this. Those who keep on breaking the Sabbath, and do not repent, are in trouble where your theology is concerned, and I will not allow you to go unchallenged. I don't care if you respond to my posts or not, but I will continue to counter and refute your false teachings, they do not emanate from God. You may be led by A spirit, but it is not the HOLY SPIRIT, that is for sure.

[Christ's Free Servant]

Sue, if you go back through his other posts since he has been on this board, he always tries to find a "back door" to bringing up the Sabbath over and over again. If you don't keep the seventh day Sabbath, then you are in disobedience according to him. What he is trying to do is to get people to get on board with him about obeying the "Ten commandments" (when the only commandment he is really interested in at this point, is the Sabbath). He has done this before. It starts off with "the Ten Commandments," but eventually he pares it down to what the issue he REALLY is aiming at, namely that seventh day Sabbath observence is mandatory for the Christian. If you ask him direct questions as I have done repeatedly in the past, he ignores them because it destorys his true agenda, which is to spread a works based, false gospel.

Thank you, Shiloh, for clarifying your meaning there.

[Pilgrim7]

God bless you Micen2,

It is truly nice to see that some understand. Although I would caution you about agreeing with anything I share, especially when it is backed up by the words of Jesus. You have now made yourself a target of insults to your motives, your integrity, your inteligence and your honesty.

When one can't receive the truth the only thing left is to crucify the bearer. Attack the messenger, rather than deal with the truth. This is nothing new, John the Baptist experienced it, Jesus experienced it and the Apostles knew it well.

It is truly amazing that the 'words of Jesus' can draw such unloving reactions from those who claim to be His followers. Was it Jesus who told us to go out and insult our enemies and say all manner of evil against them.

Another quote from the Scriptures, more words of Jesus:

Mt 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

You see it was the 'church folk' who gave Jesus so much trouble because of His words.

God bless and keep,

Dennis

[Guest yod]

I wish we could get back to the conversation....

It always seemed kinda strange how the SDA would pluck the sabbath out of the rest of God's teaching though. There is a lot that SDA seems to ignore while insisting on certain parts of the Torah being mandatory. Can you explain why Sabbath is mandatory but Passover isn't since both are called "everlasting" ?

[EricH]

I wish we could get back to the conversation....

It always seemed kinda strange how the SDA would pluck the sabbath out of the rest of God's teaching though. There is a lot that SDA seems to ignore while insisting on certain parts of the Torah being mandatory. Can you explain why Sabbath is mandatory but Passover isn't since both are called "everlasting" ?

Very good question!!

[Guest shiloh357]

When one can't receive the truth the only thing left is to crucify the bearer.

You are not being "crucified." You are being corrected. You do not bear the truth, but rather a works-based salvation.

Attack the messenger, rather than deal with the truth. This is nothing new, John the Baptist experienced it, Jesus experienced it and the Apostles knew it well.

Drop the phoney persecution complex. I dealt extensively with your remarks about justification, reconciliation and some of the Scriptures you used and how you are mishandling them. You have not been attacked. You have not seen "attacked," yet. The fact remains that your hermeneutics are very poor, and you lack a great deal of skill in exegesis. That is not an attack, that is fact. You pencil in your own subjective meanings to the Scriptures to force them to coincide with SDA doctrine.

It is truly amazing that the 'words of Jesus' can draw such unloving reactions from those who claim to be His followers. Was it Jesus who told us to go out and insult our enemies and say all manner of evil against them.

You simply have a problem dealing with facts. You characterize correction with insults, while saying that anyone who disagrees with you is not listening to the Holy Spirit. You pretend that your doctrine is purely biblical without mixture of human influence, which is both hypocritical and intellectually dishonest. I am not going to let you get away with it.

[thechild]

When one can't receive the truth the only thing left is to crucify the bearer.

You are not being "crucified." You are being corrected. You do not bear the truth, but rather a works-based salvation.

Attack the messenger, rather than deal with the truth. This is nothing new, John the Baptist experienced it, Jesus experienced it and the Apostles knew it well.

Drop the phoney persecution complex. I dealt extensively with your remarks about justification, reconciliation and some of the Scriptures you used and how you are mishandling them. You have not been attacked. You have not seen "attacked," yet. The fact remains that your hermeneutics are very poor, and you lack a great deal of skill in exegesis. That is not an attack, that is fact. You pencil in your own subjective meanings to the Scriptures to force them to coincide with SDA doctrine.

It is truly amazing that the 'words of Jesus' can draw such unloving reactions from those who claim to be His followers. Was it Jesus who told us to go out and insult our enemies and say all manner of evil against them.

You simply have a problem dealing with facts. You characterize correction with insults, while saying that anyone who disagrees with you is not listening to the Holy Spirit. You pretend that your doctrine is purely biblical without mixture of human influence, which is both hypocritical and intellectually dishonest. I am not going to let you get away with it.

a lipservice-based salvation is not the truth either. if you are not bearing fruit you will get cursed like the fig tree.

gal 5

18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Ephesians 5

1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance

or from the NIV

love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control

thats what others should be able to see and experience from someone walking in the spirit and bearing good fruit. and it matters not who those others are. a tree never changes its fruit based upon who it is that walks up to pick some.

[EricH]

thats what others should be able to see and experience from someone walking in the spirit and bearing good fruit. and it matters not who those others are. a tree never changes its fruit based upon who it is that walks up to pick some.

However, trees do go through seasons where the amount an quality of the fruit varies. That is the nature of growth.

[apothanein kerdos]

Micen, the labels addressed to you, especially the Gnostic one (concerning your belief that Jesus was not inherently the Christ and was not God) are highly accurate. What you state about Christ and even about salvation is exactly, almost word for word, what the Gnostics taught. How is that an unfair label?

Regardless, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. If our salvation is obtained/maintained by our works, then what seperates us from any other religion?